Greetings, How much credibility and weight and consideration do you give to your spouse/friend about how your speakers sound?

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

Hello,
This dawned on me tonight and I may have shot myself in the foot.
1. I Asked my wife to help me. I asked her if she could sit in the listening chair, close her eyes and point to where she thinks the music is coming from.
2. I played Witney Houston, and Led Zeppelin ( Black Dog, Stairway to heaven)
3. I then asked her to point to where she is hearing the music. She pointed pretty much in the centre with the lyrics and pointed out instruments in the invisible soundstage.
4. I then asked her, stereo image aside, what did she think about the sound quality. She stated the music sounded crisp, clear and very musical. Then she said it sounded like when she was a kid and her father( audiophile) would play music in the house and it sounded so good.
5. My wife does play the piano - not much, just at an intermediate level, but loves music and I think she has an ear.
6. So, how much weight do I give to what she said? Reason, when I play certain songs - like Rock and Roll by Zeppelin or some songs form Journey, when the music picks up it sounds muddy and I can't tell instrument separation and make out the male vocals - I would love if someone explained why my speakers fail at those songs, hence; why I am looking for speakers to handle the faster rock?
7. I am still learning therefore I do not know yet which speakers will handle faster paced songs or better yet what should I be looking for in a speaker that would tell me it can handle rock better though out of all my music only about 10 songs suck on my speakers. All Advice is utterly appreciated beyond any reasonable doubt.
Happy Evening all and Thank you again for your help on my last post for auditioning speakers, but now I am not sure if Diminishing returns set in quickly to solve the faster rock genre.

 

[Doodski]

First question... Are you using EQ/PEQ?

 

[RayDunzl]

Reason, when I play certain songs - like Rock and Roll by Zeppelin or some songs form Journey, when the music picks up it sounds muddy and I can't tell instrument separation and make out the male vocals - I would love if someone explained why my speakers fail at those songs

What's the source for those?

Something different than the others that sould good to you?

 

[boxerfan88]

One feedback is just one data point.

I prefer to average 10 or more different opinions and take the average with 50% weight. The other 50% weight is from my own listening. YMMV. Each person hear/listen differently.

 

[Doodski]

One feedback is just one data point.

I prefer to average 10 or more different opinions and take the average with 50% weight. The other 50% weight is from my own listening. YMMV. Each person hear/listen differently.

Good common sense approach. In this case both @RayDunzl's idea of a source issue and my idea of needing frequency compensation in the form of parametric equalization are good common sense too.

 

[Petrushka]

I have four grandchildren who would not exist if my wife had not loved my system in college.

 

[Doodski]

I have four grandchildren who would not exist if my wife had not loved my system in college.

My 750 Watt Carver, Sansui and JBL car audio system in the prime years of the mid 80s got me my first wife...LoL... We met at Peachfest a summer celebration in the Okanagan in British Columbia. I had very loud music coming from my car and I caught her eye and she mine and I pulled over and we waited in line to get into a pub and gave up and we all 6 of us went to the lake and had brewskies, tokes and swimming till the night came when we all pitched tent in a grassy desert sorta forest overlooking The City of Penticton where we partied till ~3am.

 

[Chrispy]

Could be quality of recordings for those 10 you don't like on your speakers. Hard to know what other people may prefer altho their input might be interesting. What speakers are they?

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

When I am tuning an audio system for myself, my main points of data are my ears and my measurement mic. Beyond that I don't really listen to what others say because they are usually wrong (when it comes to my personal audio systems).
When I am tuning / designing an audio system for someone else (be it a friend, family, or for work), I will tend to listen to their opinions at probably 10-15% weight, if I can't hear what they are describing as well. I will weight my ears at probably 50% and my mic the remaining 35-40%, assuming I have my mic with me. If I do not have my mic with me, my tactic shifts to using my phone's RTA app to identify potential issues, and using my ears to confirm that. Once I identify an issue, I will try to correct that, and if someone else is present I will usually solicit their opinion, and if they noticed something I will probably weight my opinion supported by my phone's mic at 70%, and their opinion at 30%.

Of course, I also tend to be right when I am doing this, so people usually agree with me when I make a tuning or design decision. (This is a product of a ridiculous amount of research, learning, and experimenting on my part) There are some times when I am wrong, if I am doing something completely outside of my expertise, but in those cases I do my research, and factor in other peoples' opinions with the weights that they deserve.

So basically, it depends. If someone says that they hear a thing x, and I also hear that thing x, then I will obviously believe them. If they say that they hear y, but I do not and I know that y is not possible (either by measuring or otherwise), then I will not believe them. If I am doing a job for someone else then their opinion obviously matters, so I do solicit feedback once I have a basic design or tune in place.

Keep in mind, a lot of people don't know what good sound sounds like. They will know it when they hear it, but sometimes people get used to bad sound, and these people can then give you bad data points. (For example: If someone is used to a treble-heavy system, and they hear a "flat" system, they will think it lacks treble. They may then suggest to you to increase the treble. This is a bad data point, obviously.) These can be corrected by using a natural reference, say a piano, other instruments, or the human voice (when recorded properly). For example, I use "Giorgio by Moroder" from Random Access Memories by Daft Punk to test vocal intelligibility, as well as light music capabilities. This is a good reference track as the vocal on it is recorded incredibly cleanly, and voices are a common natural sound, so if the vocal sounds wrong then we know that the system has a problem. I recently did a tuning job on a sound system, and once I had a tune in place we verified it with that track, and it just sounded "right".

Now: To answer what I think you are asking:
You are asking about speakers that handle fast songs. I can take any number of quality speakers, which can easily reproduce very fast songs, and put them in bad positions, in a bad room, with a weak amplifier, and have predictably bad results. If you have an issue with your setup, my first recommendation would be to use a measurement mic to verify its performance, and you may need to adjust things to optimize performance. You could also need EQ to correct for bass issues if they are present. Room modes can lead to a speaker sounding "slow" quite easily. So in other words, there are a ton of reasons why your setup could not be performing optimally in your room.

With that being said, what is your gear list? ie: What speakers do you have and what are you driving them with?
For example, my setup has speakers that typically wouldn't be great for dynamics, but since I am using them in a small room, with a 600w/ch amp and 2 subs, they are quite dynamic.

 

[MAB]

when I play certain songs - like Rock and Roll by Zeppelin or some songs form Journey, when the music picks up it sounds muddy and I can't tell instrument separation and make out the male vocals - I would love if someone explained why my speakers fail at those songs, hence; why I am looking for speakers to handle the faster rock?

Songs from albums like this?

If so, it's not really your system. It's a great album, but isn't one to judge your speakers by. This is just one among many, all genre are guilty of bad sounding recordings. People go and buy every copy of every supposed improved mastering, pressing, and re-release of various bad sounding albums, often in vain (don't ask me how I know this). There is even a documentary claiming (arguably) bad sound kept Anvil from the mega-success they deserved:

Anvil (2008) ⭐ 7.9 | Documentary, Biography, Drama

1h 20m | Not Rated

www.imdb.com

It's easy on ASR (or anywhere else for that matter) to get a case of FUD on the gear you have, given there are such a range of speaker reviews, measurements, and discussions. One thing that can help your uncertainty is to get a simple measurement mic, and use some of the software discussed here (like REW). You can learn how to evaluate your speakers in your room, see if you have some reflections, resonances, peaks or valleys that might exacerbate issues. Explore quantitatively the on and off-axis behavior of your speakers. Perhaps use moving mic method to get an approximation at the main listening position (I learned that here from a knowledgeable member's posts). You will invariably find some things that you can improve, even if your speakers and/or room are not ideal (nobody's are). PEQ is one path that helps. Even small changes in placement can help, and with a mic it isn't voodoo, you can actually measure changes in bass, off-axis behavior, etc.

Hope this helps.

 

[amadeogt]

6. So, how much weight do I give to what she said? Reason, when I play certain songs - like Rock and Roll by Zeppelin or some songs form Journey, when the music picks up it sounds muddy and I can't tell instrument separation and make out the male vocals - I would love if someone explained why my speakers fail at those songs, hence; why I am looking for speakers to handle the faster rock?

She might have better hearing than you. The science is not settled, but there are many studies showing men have more intense and accelerated age-related hearing loss. An interesting topic: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jnr.24647

 

[stringer]

My wife has pretty significant hearing loss. She was born partially deaf in both ears and now that she's entering her fifties, it's getting worse. She wears hearing aids all of the time.

We have had a pair of Martin Logan SL3s for fifteen years. We have had a few different amps running them over the years (Arcam, Anthem, Rotel). They have always sounded amazing for music. But we have had issues with garbled dialogue for home theater. Especially for her with her hearing impairments. But now that I have found this amazing place, and I have figured out the issue with measurements. The speakers are too close to the wall. It creates a huge room resonance at 50 hertz that makes everything muddy when there are explosions and car chases going on. Moving the speakers out further from the wall works well in my experimentation but isn't an option. We just don't have the space.

So I got a Wiim Pro and built some PEQ settings. And now we can crank everything up really loud and enjoy a real cinematic experience, but also be able to understand what the actors are saying.

For music, the differences are not so light and day. There is such tremendous variety of different types of music and how they were recorded and what kind of medium it's on and what the condition of the medium is and etc. That I usually end up fiddling with the tone controls on my Rotel if I'm doing any serious listening and adjusting the PEQ settings after every track. Lol.

 

[blueone]

Since my wife is a musician with long experience in various types of groups, including orchestras, big bands, rock bands, jazz bands, and theater, if she says something sounds real, I perk right up and listen carefully. Even more so when she doesn't like how a system sounds.

 

[Mart68]

I trust what a civilian says more than any enthusiast. Enthusiasts can get to where they can't see the wood for the trees. You get a fellow nutter come around, he's into single driver folded horns and SETs. He sees big multiway speakers and solid state amps, he's made his mind up already before the first bar of music.

Civilians have no stake either way but if it sounds good to them, they'll usually say so. That's how you know you're on a winner.

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

First question... Are you using EQ/PEQ?

No EQ/PEQ

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

What's the source for those?

Something different than the others that sould good to you?

Thanks for asking - source is a Marantz cd60 with analogue interconnects.

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

I have four grandchildren who would not exist if my wife had not loved my system in college.

I just laughed.. that was great!

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

Could be quality of recordings for those 10 you don't like on your speakers. Hard to know what other people may prefer altho their input might be interesting. What speakers are they?

They are 2007 JBL 4 way towers. Thanks for asking.

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

When I am tuning an audio system for myself, my main points of data are my ears and my measurement mic. Beyond that I don't really listen to what others say because they are usually wrong (when it comes to my personal audio systems).
When I am tuning / designing an audio system for someone else (be it a friend, family, or for work), I will tend to listen to their opinions at probably 10-15% weight, if I can't hear what they are describing as well. I will weight my ears at probably 50% and my mic the remaining 35-40%, assuming I have my mic with me. If I do not have my mic with me, my tactic shifts to using my phone's RTA app to identify potential issues, and using my ears to confirm that. Once I identify an issue, I will try to correct that, and if someone else is present I will usually solicit their opinion, and if they noticed something I will probably weight my opinion supported by my phone's mic at 70%, and their opinion at 30%.

Of course, I also tend to be right when I am doing this, so people usually agree with me when I make a tuning or design decision. (This is a product of a ridiculous amount of research, learning, and experimenting on my part) There are some times when I am wrong, if I am doing something completely outside of my expertise, but in those cases I do my research, and factor in other peoples' opinions with the weights that they deserve.

So basically, it depends. If someone says that they hear a thing x, and I also hear that thing x, then I will obviously believe them. If they say that they hear y, but I do not and I know that y is not possible (either by measuring or otherwise), then I will not believe them. If I am doing a job for someone else then their opinion obviously matters, so I do solicit feedback once I have a basic design or tune in place.

Keep in mind, a lot of people don't know what good sound sounds like. They will know it when they hear it, but sometimes people get used to bad sound, and these people can then give you bad data points. (For example: If someone is used to a treble-heavy system, and they hear a "flat" system, they will think it lacks treble. They may then suggest to you to increase the treble. This is a bad data point, obviously.) These can be corrected by using a natural reference, say a piano, other instruments, or the human voice (when recorded properly). For example, I use "Giorgio by Moroder" from Random Access Memories by Daft Punk to test vocal intelligibility, as well as light music capabilities. This is a good reference track as the vocal on it is recorded incredibly cleanly, and voices are a common natural sound, so if the vocal sounds wrong then we know that the system has a problem. I recently did a tuning job on a sound system, and once I had a tune in place we verified it with that track, and it just sounded "right".

Now: To answer what I think you are asking:
You are asking about speakers that handle fast songs. I can take any number of quality speakers, which can easily reproduce very fast songs, and put them in bad positions, in a bad room, with a weak amplifier, and have predictably bad results. If you have an issue with your setup, my first recommendation would be to use a measurement mic to verify its performance, and you may need to adjust things to optimize performance. You could also need EQ to correct for bass issues if they are present. Room modes can lead to a speaker sounding "slow" quite easily. So in other words, there are a ton of reasons why your setup could not be performing optimally in your room.

With that being said, what is your gear list? ie: What speakers do you have and what are you driving them with?
For example, my setup has speakers that typically wouldn't be great for dynamics, but since I am using them in a small room, with a 600w/ch amp and 2 subs, they are quite dynamic.

wow thank you for all that! I will re check everything. Ok, sources: Amp 115RMS@8ohms, 165RMS@4ohms. Room: 19x16x9 - with treatment. Speakers are 4 way towers (90db) 40hz to 45khz. 11 gauge/locking banana plugs. Marantz cd60.

 

[Reminiscent Audio Guy]

Songs from albums like this?

If so, it's not really your system. It's a great album, but isn't one to judge your speakers by. This is just one among many, all genre are guilty of bad sounding recordings. People go and buy every copy of every supposed improved mastering, pressing, and re-release of various bad sounding albums, often in vain (don't ask me how I know this). There is even a documentary claiming (arguably) bad sound kept Anvil from the mega-success they deserved:

Anvil (2008) ⭐ 7.9 | Documentary, Biography, Drama

1h 20m | Not Rated

www.imdb.com

It's easy on ASR (or anywhere else for that matter) to get a case of FUD on the gear you have, given there are such a range of speaker reviews, measurements, and discussions. One thing that can help your uncertainty is to get a simple measurement mic, and use some of the software discussed here (like REW). You can learn how to evaluate your speakers in your room, see if you have some reflections, resonances, peaks or valleys that might exacerbate issues. Explore quantitatively the on and off-axis behavior of your speakers. Perhaps use moving mic method to get an approximation at the main listening position (I learned that here from a knowledgeable member's posts). You will invariably find some things that you can improve, even if your speakers and/or room are not ideal (nobody's are). PEQ is one path that helps. Even small changes in placement can help, and with a mic it isn't voodoo, you can actually measure changes in bass, off-axis behavior, etc.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. That makes sense and I am looking forward to the measurement mic and software. New learning curve for sure. I appreciate all this info. Helps a lot and sounds exciting to up the skill in speaker set up and room acoustics. Great info! Thanks I am on it.