GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

[danadam]

1 for "X=A, Y=B", 2 for "Y=A, X=B"

I'll admit that from usability perspective it's probably not good that these two are next to each other.

 

[SIY]

Just so's I'm clear, the case you want to hedge against is there being some visible cue that the tested is using to differentiate

Yes, it's already been shown that there's an easily measurable spectral difference, and that difference can be seen rapidly. From there, it's pretty straightforward to see a dozen ways to use non-auditory cues. A good magician could probably come up with a couple dozen more. Like I said, I'm semi-knowledgeable but not a pro.

there's a point where you have to decide whether you're taking this as an experiment presented in good faith by an earnest (if, IMO, mislead in some of his views) person, or an attempted deception.

I have no opinion, but data from a solidly-controlled experiment would drive me one way or another.

 

[solderdude]

Again, this can't preclude cheating. You being there in person wouldn't be able to conclusively preclude that unless you fully controlled the signal chain and switching setup. But there's a point where you have to decide whether you're taking this as an experiment presented in good faith by an earnest (if, IMO, mislead in some of his views) person, or an attempted deception.

Yep, that's basically it.

 

[RandomEar]

@Mad_Economist Are there any updates? I remember you posting that you wanted to meet Cameron and had some additional tests in mind, or am I getting stuff mixed up? Did I perhaps miss a new thread on this topic?

 

[Mad_Economist]

@Mad_Economist Are there any updates? I remember you posting that you wanted to meet Cameron and had some additional tests in mind, or am I getting stuff mixed up? Did I perhaps miss a new thread on this topic?

Sadly none yet - as you may recall, there was something of a kerfuffle that took up a lot of Cameron's time recently, and I'm currently prepping stuff for Canjam SoCal.

The next test he and I have discussed is an ABX between two real DACs he considers audibly differentiable but whose measurements would imply otherwise, with recording at the output to ensure that there aren't any "tells" we're missing that clue him in. I don't have a timetable on that, however.

 

[SIY]

recording at the output to ensure that there aren't any "tells" we're missing that clue him in.

Will you be controlling for other non-auditory factors?

 

[Mad_Economist]

Will you be controlling for other non-auditory factors?

Like potential sighted cheating? I have one idea for that, yes. I'm gonna make him do the same ABX with recordings of the two DACs in something like Jaakko's ABX software or something else with a publicly verifiable checksum.

 

[SIY]

Like potential sighted cheating?

Yes, but it can be done in a lot of easy ways that your suggestion doesn't control for. I mentioned one way earlier in the thread.

 

[Mad_Economist]

Yes, but it can be done in a lot of easy ways that your suggestion doesn't control for. I mentioned one way earlier in the thread.

Yes, it is pretty well impossible to prevent a charlatan from faking results without physical observation. You can make it progressively harder - e.g. doing it my way would require that you, like, FFT the output continuously to check for differences in the filter parameters or something - but cheating is always possible. Of course, if I were there in person, my own honesty could also be challenged, so there's a bit of a regress problem here...

 

[SIY]

Of course, if I were there in person, my own honesty could also be challenged, so there's a bit of a regress problem here...

In a cosmic sense, true. But if you're not invested in the answer, that strengthens the case.

Best yet is to have a magician watch.

 

[Mad_Economist]

In a cosmic sense, true. But if you're not invested in the answer, that strengthens the case.

Best yet is to have a magician watch.

I have to wear my bias on my sleeve: I am invested in showing that such audible differences in DACs and amps, in functional terms, do not exist. I try to suspend this bias, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happier with a null result than a positive finding.

If you're ever in the south of England, I'm sure Cameron would be happy to have you over to observe in person, for what it's worth

 

[ads_cft222]

I try to suspend this bias, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happier with a null result than a positive finding.

Why is that ? Since ASR has a strong stance on this issue will it offer an apology in case the test is positive ?

 

[Mad_Economist]

Why is that ? Since ASR has a strong stance on this issue will it offer an apology in case the test is positive ?

Because I personally fairly strongly doubt that there is any real effect here, and one doesn't like to think that he's spent years calling people snake oil merchants incorrectly

 

[ads_cft222]

Because I personally fairly strongly doubt that there is any real effect here, and one doesn't like to think that he's spent years calling people snake oil merchants incorrectly

That is why it is always wise to avoid such characterisations even if you think you have many chances to be on the right side …

 

[Mad_Economist]

That is why it is always wise to avoid such characterisations even if you think you have many chances to be on the right side …

It's a good reason to be precise in our statements, but on the converse side, the current large body of evidence suggests that many brands are selling products under false marketing for high markups. While we should be civil, surely we shouldn't be silent on that sort of thing.

 

[sonitus mirus]

It's a good reason to be precise in our statements, but on the converse side, the current large body of evidence suggests that many brands are selling products under false marketing for high markups. While we should be civil, surely we shouldn't be silent on that sort of thing.

If differences can't be measured objectively and consistently shown to be audible, how can any improvements in such devices be meaningfully designed or justified? Unfortunately, it seems that ship has already sailed.

 

[krabapple]

I took a self-imposed break, but has there been any progress on providing output files from the DACs? Initially, this was supposed to be provided immediately; however, I still haven't seen anything. Did I miss it?

THey are availale now, according to this post

Though I can't say for sure if anyone has bothered to analyze them?