General debate thread about audio measurements

[Dialectic]

The gear that Schiit makes and measures okay can be bettered for less money.

Yes, and I wonder if the weak, odd, postmodernist, anti-rationalist defenses of Schiit in this thread resulted from buyer's remorse.

Though usually caused by large purchases, buyer's remorse can be triggered even by small purchases. Especially if those purchases involve Schiit DACs and the purchaser then comes to ASR.

 

[GearMe]

Ones which have been measured and shown to perform much worse than other products. Much worse than other cheaper products. Which means this part of your post really isn't valid. just know they sound bad We know they have poor performance from measurements. Maybe not all of them, but a goodly number of their products. After learning that why would anyone give them the benefit of doubt even if they sometimes get it right?

1. just know they sound bad...it was soundArgument that said they sound bad without ever listening to any of them...not me.

2. why give them the benefit of doubt even if they sometimes get it right? Well...it's a long story but...I owned Sumo amps & preamps back in the day and liked their sound and value proposition. When I made the switch to headphones, I happened across Schiit and bought a Modi/Magni stack for $200. Sounded pretty good for that price and they held up well including daily use. That led to my Valhalla 2 / Bifrost purchase...sounds great to me with my high-impedance Senns & Beyers...btw!

You'll have to explain to me why you'd support a poorly performing piece of gear vs one that performs well. If it made no audible difference and was cheaper that would be one thing. If it has niceties and features not commonly found maybe that is something. But when it costs the same or more, performs worse, and is hair shirted in most cases, exactly at what point does a consumer say, "oh, they are bad mouthing that gear, that is the gear I want to own and no good reason not to get it". That frankly sounds retarded.

Retarded?...Well done! When in doubt this type of insult is a great discussion strategy.

So...first off, why does anybody have to explain to you (or others in this forum) why they make they buying decisions they do? Because they don't align with yours?

But since you require it...here goes! Because I like defying the odds I guess! As mentioned, in my earlier post, apparently I am the luckiest Schiit owner on the planet --- none of the Schiit products I've bought are poor sounding or unreliable...just like the ones I own from (iFi, Sony, Meridian, M-Audio, Fiio, etc.). Fortunately for me, my ownership luck not only continues, but I also had the good timing to make these purchases prior to the ASR reviews! Who knows, with all of the Schiit slinging, I may have been persuaded otherwise!

PS- in case you haven't noticed, the hear it with your own ears method isn't considered a reliable arbiter by most on this forum. Using that as some sort of criticism is not the devastating comeback you seem to think it is. Schiit gear has earned the opinion that until proven otherwise it likely is poorly designed.

Hmmm...thanks for the heads-up...will try to be more observant! FWIW, I asked soundArgument about "hear it with your own ears method" simply because he replied the way he did about the sound of Schiit DACs (i.e. sound like Schiit) without any first-hand listening experience. It's astonishing to me that people can claim knowledge about a sensory experience without partaking in the actual activity.

At no point have I advocated for this methodology as the sole/primary way to evaluate equipment. If soundArgument would have asked a couple simple questions, s/he could have figured this out. Instead, s/he chose to bash an audio brand's sound with no personal listening experiences with their products (like many of the Beats haters on Head-Fi). Then he ducked out of the discussion with a weak deflection/insult regarding my reading abilities which was baseless.


That said, I'm of the opinion that very few of the DACs tested on this forum could be consistently differentiated in a DBT by any of its participants...which I've stated before on this forum. You won't see me buying an RME, Benchmark, Yggy, or a pick your $$$$ DAC.

This relative gear 'similarity', along with the arrogant posturing of some of this forum's members, is why it's so frustrating to those of us that have open minds regarding a balanced product evaluation/choice methodology. IMO, there is no significant, integrated linkage in the reviews on this site to measurements and how they relate sound signatures. Realistically, for much of the hardware tested, this may not be a viable ask compared to what Tyll accomplished with his combined headphone measurements and subjective reviews...especially given the minute differences in the gear.

TBH, some people on this forum seem to be Measurement Fanboys that like to denigrate others who don't agree with their viewpoints...very much the same as the Schiit Fanboys that they complain about on the other side of the coin.

 

[Blumlein 88]

1. just know they sound bad...it was soundArgument that said they sound bad without ever listening to any of them...not me.

2. why give them the benefit of doubt even if they sometimes get it right? Well...it's a long story but...I owned Sumo amps & preamps back in the day and liked their sound and value proposition. When I made the switch to headphones, I happened across Schiit and bought a Modi/Magni stack for $200. Sounded pretty good for that price and they held up well including daily use. That led to my Valhalla 2 / Bifrost purchase...sounds great to me with my high-impedance Senns & Beyers...btw!

Well if your idea of sound decisions is to give the benefit of the doubt because it isn't always wrong (with a company that makes sketchy products) then you are following the right policy. You already know what I think of that. You are of course free to do as you please.

So...first off, why does anybody have to explain to you (or others in this forum) why they make they buying decisions they do? Because they don't align with yours?

I didn't say you had to explain purchasing decisions to me. I was getting at making purchasing decisions that are illogical based upon available information, and advocating that as a good reasonable course of action. And below your response amounted to defying the odds and that you might have been persuaded otherwise if you'd had information showing Schiit to be under-performing. Did it occur to you it might have resulted in you getting better performing gear?

But since you require it...here goes! Because I like defying the odds I guess! As mentioned, in my earlier post, apparently I am the luckiest Schiit owner on the planet --- none of the Schiit products I've bought are poor sounding or unreliable...just like the ones I own from (iFi, Sony, Meridian, M-Audio, Fiio, etc.). Fortunately for me, my ownership luck not only continues, but I also had the good timing to make these purchases prior to the ASR reviews! Who knows, with all of the Schiit slinging, I may have been persuaded otherwise!




Hmmm...thanks for the heads-up...will try to be more observant! FWIW, I asked soundArgument about "hear it with your own ears method" simply because he replied the way he did about the sound of Schiit DACs (i.e. sound like Schiit) without any first-hand listening experience. It's astonishing to me that people can claim knowledge about a sensory experience without partaking in the actual activity.

And it is astonishing to me, to have clear evidence something performs poorly vs another product, and then go ahead and say "sure, I'll take the lesser more expensive version you might well not hear the deficiencies".

snippage......

That said, I'm of the opinion that very few of the DACs tested on this forum could be consistently differentiated in a DBT by any of its participants...which I've stated before on this forum. You won't see me buying an RME, Benchmark, Yggy, or a pick your $$$$ DAC.

This relative gear 'similarity', along with the arrogant posturing of some of this forum's members, is why it's so frustrating to those of us that have open minds regarding a balanced product evaluation/choice methodology. IMO, there is no significant, integrated linkage in the reviews on this site to measurements and how they relate sound signatures. Realistically, for much of the hardware tested, this may not be a viable ask compared to what Tyll accomplished with his combined headphone measurements and subjective reviews...especially given the minute differences in the gear.

TBH, some people on this forum seem to be Measurement Fanboys that like to denigrate others who don't agree with their viewpoints...very much the same as the Schiit Fanboys that they complain about on the other side of the coin.

Again, someone will need to explain paying more for less. Even if less is not audibly different. Or if more is audibly different because it is less. Not because I can require an explanation, but they'll have to explain it for it to make sense to me. To explain to help me understand the continued defense of such products. On that I am a measurement fan boy.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, and I wonder if the weak, odd, postmodernist, anti-rationalist defenses of Schiit in this thread resulted from buyer's remorse.

Though usually caused by large purchases, buyer's remorse can be triggered even by small purchases. Especially if those purchases involve Schiit DACs and the purchaser then comes to ASR.

Come on soundArgument, just because 4 of 5 products from a company are sub-standard doesn't guarantee they all are. Perfectly rational to support such a company. Besides you might not hear those design deficiencies, doesn't that sound like two good reasons to purchase. Why let yourself be persuaded by confirmed measurements showing deficiencies when doing so might result in you purchasing something for less that does more? That is just loony toons thinking on your part soundArgument.

 

[amirm]

TBH, some people on this forum seem to be Measurement Fanboys that like to denigrate others who don't agree with their viewpoints...very much the same as the Schiit Fanboys that they complain about on the other side of the coin.

The point of view of this forum is what audio science and engineering says. When those point to products not being well designed, that is what is stated.

In contrast, fanboys have no basis for their beliefs other than they know more than science.

We use measurements to show that products that people cherish to be superior, e.g. everything you read about marketing of Schiit products, when measured often show the opposite. In that regard, measurements are a powerful tool to debunk techno marketing claims. I guarantee you that prior to our measurements here, the impression of Schiit multibit DACs was that they are not only sonically better, but technically better. I am confident most did not know how poorly they measure. Heck, years ago I told my son to buy their DACs because I thought "they must be technically superior." My son observed noise issues with it and my measurements confirmed the worst response I had ever seen in a DAC. See here: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...puter-activity-can-impact-dac-performance.22/

Now that folks have seen the news of more Schiit products measuring poorly, they like to say measurements don't matter, they are broken, people don't know how to make them, etc. That is fanboyism as you state as they lack any reliable basis.

So please don't put us in the same bucket as others as you did. It is dismissive and diminutive of the ton of work we put in this forum to make it information rich. This is ultimately what we are. We value what you can present at AES, ASA, IEEE, etc. with a straight face in front of researchers, engineers and luminaries.

Also, please be aware of that we know the other side's arguments. We have all participated in other forums where such talk is either common or gospel. So let's not go over that well paved ground again. That "this product sounds better even though measures worse" is in dire need of validation and data. Not just declaring it and hoping it makes a point that takes people back.

In your follow up posts, I love to see something other than opinion. Please present research, papers, authoritative references, formal testing, measurements, etc. that we can chew on. Otherwise this is just a practice to hurt each other's feeling and not much else.

Edit: added the reference to my son's Schiit experience above.

 

[Dialectic]

Come on soundArgument, just because 4 of 5 products from a company are sub-standard doesn't guarantee they all are. Perfectly rational to support such a company. Besides you might not hear those design deficiencies, doesn't that sound like two good reasons to purchase. Why let yourself be persuaded by confirmed measurements showing deficiencies when doing so might result in you purchasing something for less that does more? That is just loony toons thinking on your part soundArgument.

The 'Ignore' button (the gift that keeps on giving here on ASR) experienced a glitch, and I can see that the weirdly vigorous, postmodern, content-free Schiit defense did result from buyer's remorse. I should be an audiophile therapist.

I've made dumb audio purchases, too, and I sold them on Audiogon. (Some have gone deeper than I. DallasJustice's post on his TotalDAC mistake has stuck with me.)

I recommend selling Schiit products to super best friends or perhaps to Herb Reichert, unless he has a complete collection of Schiit in his appropriately named "Bunker" already. Swallow the loss, and use the proceeds to buy inexpensive, well-engineered gear. You'll enjoy the more accurate sound of your new system, and you might even have a few bucks left over to spend on something worthwhile.

Like cheeses from Murray's. Or a squat rack or gym membership to combat sarcopenia, a veritable plague among audio enthusiasts.

 

[Dialectic]

That "this product sounds better even though measures worse" is in dire need of validation and data. Not just declaring it and hoping it makes a point that takes people back.

I think this argument first emerged in the 1960s, when the new and "perfect" solid-state amplifiers with very significant but then unrecognized zero-crossing distortion were lauded by some publications. This led to the "subjectivist" school of audio enthusiasm, which received a boost from the perhaps premature advent of CD technology.

Audio measurement has come a long way since then. Today the consistent unwillingness of subjectivist school enthusiasts to participate in blind tests casts doubt on their assertions.

Further, the subjectivist school of audio enthusiasm has proven fertile ground for manufacturers who are either incompetents or fraudsters. I commend Amir, the other measurers, and the folks who have donated funds and lent their gear for testing for helping to shed some light on the incompetents and fraudsters.

 

[March Audio]

If people can't hear the different between various class AB solid state topologies and circuitry, then why are they even reviewing DACs? They sound massively different
d outside of the chip, effect the sound the most in competent (or semi-competent) designs. If people don't care or can't hear it, then that's fair but don't pretend that they all sound the same. The current-feedback TI/BB opamps used in the Grace gear sound doesn't sound remotely like the newer Sound Plus ones used in the RME or Chris Muth's THAT buffers with OPA134. What we have here is the same as color blind people deluded that the Crayola 64-pack of crayons is placebo and really just the same as the 8-pack.

No they don't sound massively different. Easily proven under controlled blind conditions. You are deluding yourself.

Uncontrolled sighted personal subjective commentary has no credibility in this forum.

 

[tomelex]

IF you believe the purpose of your audio system is to accurately replicate the electrical signals put into it then the only way to do that is by electrical measurements. And, they need to be thorough and then they will show how the input signal is added to or subtracted from, and this process is more accurate than any set of human ear/brain systems.

IF you believe the purpose of your audio system is to "move you...make you tap your feet...light up your brain happy neurons...etc) then please do not disparage measurements, as you are confusing accuracy of replication with personal preference.

As I have said in the past, accuracy does not necessarily mean you like the sound of it, as an example, play a 1 KHZ tone back from a cd test disc, then play a 1 KHz tone back from a vinyl test disc, many would choose the vinyl playback tone as sounding better because it is mellowed by the vinyl playback chain, that is it has added distortions, harmonics, primarily even, that add warmth to the sound. Warmth is good but measurements will of course reveal these additives for what they are, distortions of the electrical signal.

 

[Dialectic]

Uncontrolled sighted personal subjective commentary has no credibility in this forum.

This is the double-edged sword of ASR.

My favorite new audio technology is BACCH. Conceptually, I know how to measure BACCH, but practically, I don't know how to do it. And consequently, I've only been able to persuade one member of this forum, who is far more technically literate than I, to try it.

If more of my fellow posters here were willing to try BACCH and to trust their subjective impressions of it, I'm confident that more would be using it.

But the BACCH to non-BACCH comparison is not like comparisons among DACs. It's a difference that anyone with some hearing left in both ears could hear.

 

[amirm]

But the BACCH to non-BACCH comparison is not like comparisons among DACs. It's a difference that anyone with some hearing left in both ears could hear.

Just as well as we don't subject lossy compression to measurements, there are technologies that should be evaluated by ear alone.

 

[March Audio]

This is the double-edged sword of ASR.

My favorite new audio technology is BACCH. Conceptually, I know how to measure BACCH, but practically, I don't know how to do it. And consequently, I've only been able to persuade one member of this forum, who is far more technically literate than I, to try it.

If more of my fellow posters here were willing to try BACCH and to trust their subjective impressions of it, I'm confident that more would be using it.

But the BACCH to non-BACCH comparison is not like comparisons among DACs. It's a difference that anyone with some hearing left in both ears could hear.

So long as those subjective impressions were controlled and blind......

 

[Cosmik]

Conceptually, I know how to measure BACCH, but practically, I don't know how to do it.

Just at the conceptual level, what would you be trying to do?

 

[Beherit]

I'm done with this argument. Amir and company are just retired tech brahs with money to spend and seemingly have an agenda to push against Schiit when most of this stuff is just as bad or worse in real world use. Most of the major shit talkers here are posers with crap gear and rooms. Have fun with your measurement gear Amir and friends. Let me make it clear that is plainly obvious that hardly any of you have experience with great gear in great environments. You're just a bunch of poser internet blow hards. Soundcloud EDM DJs have more real world experience than you.

"But my GayBeeEl 308s measure down to 40hz in muh bedroom Beherit!" Ah the McDonald's toys of Guitar Center speakers. Underbuilt, resonating plastic crap.

Scientifically speaking science if properly interpreted properly would seem to agree with you. If you eliminate bogus experiments that ignore well-known effects like Temporary Threshold Shift, the threshold of hearing for even the most obnoxious noises or distortions are no more than about 70 dB down, and often less. After that, reasonable gains are about safety margin for operations that are often repeated during production and playing. And after that, it is about numbers for the sake of numbers and just because we can.

Pretty much this. AudioScienceReview boils down to "Muh dac is 2.18 cm bigger than your tongue. This means muh dac gives earth-shattering cunnilingus compared to your tongue. The numbers prove it brah. You can't argue with numbers."

Yeah and all of these well-measuring DACs are being fed material that was run through a bukkake loads of gain stages that measure worse than the DAC (most of those super clean classical recordings are using Digidesign garbage) into pres, amps, and speakers that measure much worse than the Topping DACs fit only for pegging.

No thats dumb. All that matters is the quality of the signal that comes out of the audio sockets on the unit and its price V performance. whats inside is of no relevance at all.

Its dumb audiophillia at play otherwise. You know, "i dont like sigma delta, R2R is more organic"......even if it has a load more distortion, .....

R2R does tend to have a less offensive treble timbre (along with veil) compared to the typical bargain basement DS DAC. There is something to be said for that and not having to deal with the Benchmarks and Myteks of the world.

No they don't sound massively different. Easily proven under controlled blind conditions. You are deluding yourself.

Uncontrolled sighted personal subjective commentary has no credibility in this forum.

Just because you can't tell the difference with your poor ears, brain, chain, or room does not mean others cannot hear the difference like night and day.

eeerrrrmmm........yes that is the point. Not sure what else you are looking for.

Competently designed DACs sound excellent.

If by excellent you mean function then yes. Don't try to tell me that a specsheet Wolfson WM8471 or typical ESS 9018 sounds neutral and is perfectly transparent. Hell to the no girlfriend. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And you base your opinions upon what?

The gear that Schiit makes and measures okay can be bettered for less money. Bettered in accuracy and fidelity which is my objective. I believe I said Schiit gear was suspect until proven otherwise. So they make some okay performing gear at too high a price. I'll still skip it thank you. RME looks like more for your money.

The Topping gear must be pulling off some special magic to outperform Schiit so much and sound just as bad. Of course that is accepting your opinion on that which I have no reason to accept. It certainly does not make any sense unless you can explain yourself more fully.

Low fidelity is low fidelity. Uniformizing recordings is low-fidelity. The Topping and Schiit products are both low-fidelity. Some of the Schiit products are decent sounding in the grand scheme of things and others can be rather fun to listen to but still low-fidelity. Topping is just low-fidelity across the board.

Oh, it absolutely does. Now, if you are doing that sighted and you know which is MP3 and which is not, then sure. Your bias will tell your brain it is worse, the actual perception be damned. Make the test blind and you will be lost in the woods even though MP3 is not a great lossy compression system.

The difference is instant and obvious on proper setups with actual clarity and detail. Clearly you have never worked in the production side of the music industry. The pre-echo is obvious with percussion tracks, the depth is on well-mixed recordings is gone, and guitar distortion is fucked up (especially by LAME). Then there's the random clipping upon decoding with brickwall-mastered recordings. Acing a double blind test conducted under optimal circumstances is cake. There's no point. Enjoy your Limewire haul. I'm sure all the LAME-encoded V0 files you got over the last few years are just as good as the CDs on laptop speakers. I'm sure a Fleshlight feels just as awesome as the real thing too!

 

[trl]

Just my 2 cents here:
-1. Artificially added harmonics into the audio chain will most likely change sound’s flavour, it’s timbre. Some might actually love it...it might warm the sound a bit. However, if the musicians or the recording studios would like a song to have more harmonics, then they should do it, not the Hi-Fi equipment manufacturers.
-2. Bad jitter will definitelly influence the output sound.
-3. A noisy audio equipment might not be compatible with IEMs (e.g.: noisy headamps) or might not be used in quiet environments (e.g.: noisy active monitors).

So measurements count more than my/yours subjectivism and should count more than A/B tests too.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm done

ok.

 

[palamudin]

I'm done

"But my GayBeeEl 308s measure down to 40hz in muh bedroom Beherit!"


Pr"Muh dac is 2.18 cm bigger than your tongue. This means muh dac gives earth-shattering cunnilingus compared to your tongue. The numbers prove it brah. You can't argue with numbers."

Yeah and all of these well-measuring DACs are being fed material that was run through a bukkake loads of gain stages that measure worse than the DAC


R2R does tend to have a less offensive treble timbre (along with veil) compared to the typical bargain basement DS DAC.

Just because you can't tell the difference with your poor ears, brain, chain, or room does not mean others cannot hear the difference like night and day.


Some of the Schiit products are decent sounding in the grand scheme of things
Topping is just low-fidelity across the board.


Enjoy your Limewire haul. I'm sure all the LAME-encoded V0 files you got over the last few years are just as good as the CDs on laptop speakers. I'm sure a Fleshlight feels just as awesome as the real thing too!

Wheres the rage coming from? Are you ok? Wanna talk about it?

 

[Blumlein 88]

ok.

That is pretty mean Ray. After all it was your GayBeeEls that got to him. I have the GayBeeEl 305, but he specifically mentioned the 308s.

Seems if anyone has a good case of hearing good stuff next to the GayBeeEls it would be you with Krell and M-L in the same room. Of course I have the Soundlab ESLs. What is it about ESL lovers who also think the GayBeeEls are pretty okay? Neither of us have the Topping or the Schiit. What does it all mean?

 

[RayDunzl]

What does it all mean?

I suppose it was an attempt at insult.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Oh, it absolutely does. Now, if you are doing that sighted and you know which is MP3 and which is not, then sure. Your bias will tell your brain it is worse, the actual perception be damned. Make the test blind and you will be lost in the woods even though MP3 is not a great lossy compression system.

This reminds me of an experience I had at the demo of a new, very expensive, Aurender streaming box, it was connected to a Devialet amp and there was somebody there I knew who wanted to play me a new tune he liked. Devialet has a wireless, ie wifi input and a bit of software you can put on phone or PC to stream music to it and this friend had switched the input to wireless and was playing the tune from his phone.
Somebody came in and said to his companion, "there you are - that is what high res sounds like from a high end streamer"...