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General debate thread about audio measurements

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#1
Considering the amount of equipment Amir has measured that do not show any issues I think it would be unlikely that low mains voltage is the issue. Also you would really need to measure the output of the regulator to ascertain at what point it drops out.

A design should really have plenty of latitude for supply variation. Yes that may increase dissapation and heat in a linear regulator but it's all really very, very basic part of psu design. So if it is the case, then it's just another example of Schitt design
I have a different opinion, of course. Mostly what I read from multiple sources is that only Amir spazzes out about the readings. I certainly didn't get the hum in my phones I use with the Magni 3 that Amir described. And I went listening for noise from the thing. I used phones from 64 to 300 ohm impedance. It's not exhaustive, but it is a data point.

Atomicbob doesn't spaz out over his readings. Like Jason's second plot above, he has a similar noise curve, but 30 dB lower than Amir's.

Should equipment handle a wide range of voltages? Maybe. That's why I said above 120 v +/- 10%. 100 vac is outside of that, yet anything with a switching power supply would handle it. I personally prefer linear power supplies in the audio chain as much as possible.

And this is not some excuse for me to beat on Amir. As I stated above, I bought a Topping D-30 specifically based on his recommendation because I wanted to see if I could hear what he measures.
 
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#2
Look, Schiit has been given plenty of chances and plenty of rope on issues with their gear.
I think this is appropriate here:

This thread is degenerating. One can respect quality measurements which show gear performing above or below par but the random jibes at Schiit audio undermine the high bar this forum is supposed to set.
My questions are simple: 1) Why does everyone else measure the same equipment and come up with different results and draw different conclusions than ASR? 2) Why can't I hear the (for example) high noise floor that Amir both measures and hears?
 

March Audio

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#3
MOD edit:
It seems that we face protests, complaints, etc. about measurements provided for audio devices in the forum. Instead of having every review have such debates in it, I am creating this thread so that the discussions can be in one place and not repeated.

You can still ask questions in review threads as long as it is brief and not argumentative. If it is, the discussion should be placed here.

What follows was one of such streams (in Schiit Lyr review thread).




I have a different opinion, of course. Mostly what I read from multiple sources is that only Amir spazzes out about the readings. I certainly didn't get the hum in my phones I use with the Magni 3 that Amir described. And I went listening for noise from the thing. I used phones from 64 to 300 ohm impedance. It's not exhaustive, but it is a data point.

Atomicbob doesn't spaz out over his readings. Like Jason's second plot above, he has a similar noise curve, but 30 dB lower than Amir's.

Should equipment handle a wide range of voltages? Maybe. That's why I said above 120 v +/- 10%. 100 vac is outside of that, yet anything with a switching power supply would handle it. I personally prefer linear power supplies in the audio chain as much as possible.

And this is not some excuse for me to beat on Amir. As I stated above, I bought a Topping D-30 specifically based on his recommendation because I wanted to see if I could hear what he measures.
Well you have answered your own question. If its a switching supply, as its voltage range implies, it is very unlikely to be a problem.

Amir does not 'spazz" out about measurements, he just objectively presents what is happening. The point is, whether you can personally hear any technical performance issue or not, that as there are many other components out there that technically perform better at a lower price, why bother with the Schiit ones?

So obviosly you are not of the audiophile camp that thinks that the unmeasureable is audible ;) .
 
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March Audio

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#4
My questions are simple: 1) Why does everyone else measure the same equipment and come up with different results and draw different conclusions than ASR? 2) Why can't I hear the (for example) high noise floor that Amir both measures and hears?
From what I have seen others appear to ignore some blatant technical issues. Audiophiles cant have it both ways; one minute the unmeasureable is significant, the next obvious issues arent of any audible consequence.
 
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#6
I'm not sure w


Well you have answered your own question. If its a switching supply, as its voltage range implies, it is very unlikely to be a problem.

Amir does not 'spazz" out about measurements, he just objectively presents what is happening. The point is, whether you can personally hear any technical performance issue or not, that as there are many other components out there that technically perform better at a lower price, why bother with the Schiit ones?

So obviosly you are not of the audiophile camp that thinks that the unmeasureable is audible ;) .
I beg to differ. Personally, I'm not worried about distortion spikes that are 100+ dB down from the signal. Twice as inaudible is still inaudible.
 

Blumlein 88

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#7
I think this is appropriate here:



My questions are simple: 1) Why does everyone else measure the same equipment and come up with different results and draw different conclusions than ASR? 2) Why can't I hear the (for example) high noise floor that Amir both measures and hears?

In the case of some of the other Schiit gear others have corroborated Amir's results. Atomic Bob has gotten near identical results only he didn't comment upon them. The results were the same. Stereophile's JA has gotten results not unlike Amir's. But if the reviewer says it sounded good, then little is said about those measurements. So in this particular case I don't know of other measurements. My point is with the history of sub-standard performance by Schiit gear there are other more worthwhile things than going out of your way to get better Schiit results. If Schiit has made a device that is that easily messed up by voltage drift then it is just another case of them making poor design decisions fully in keeping with some people getting Schiity results. In one of your links they apparently had some regulators barely on the edge of working with good voltage. I call that sloppy design. Its a Schiity problem not an Amir measurement problem.

So now you want Amir to see if a device spec'ed for 115 volts to function is getting several volts less than that in an area where the standard voltage is 120 volts. Possible, though I'd say not very likely. USA power generally maintains +/- 5%. Easy enough for Amir to check takes like a few seconds. I mean we aren't talking about a 500 wpc power amp here. Not like it will sag the line over whatever its nominal voltage is.
 
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#8
In the case of some of the other Schiit gear others have corroborated Amir's results. Atomic Bob has gotten near identical results only he didn't comment upon them. The results were the same. Stereophile's JA has gotten results not unlike Amir's. But if the reviewer says it sounded good, then little is said about those measurements. So in this particular case I don't know of other measurements. My point is with the history of sub-standard performance by Schiit gear there are other more worthwhile things than going out of your way to get better Schiit results. If Schiit has made a device that is that easily messed up by voltage drift then it is just another case of them making poor design decisions fully in keeping with some people getting Schiity results. In one of your links they apparently had some regulators barely on the edge of working with good voltage. I call that sloppy design. Its a Schiity problem not an Amir measurement problem.

So now you want Amir to see if a device spec'ed for 115 volts to function is getting several volts less than that in an area where the standard voltage is 120 volts. Possible, though I'd say not very likely. USA power generally maintains +/- 5%. Easy enough for Amir to check takes like a few seconds. I mean we aren't talking about a 500 wpc power amp here. Not like it will sag the line over whatever its nominal voltage is.
I don't recall Atomicbob's plots having noise less than 100 dB down.

I recall them looking more like the well behaved Jotunheim plot Jason provided and I reposted above. Which looks superficially like Amir's plots, too, until you look at the scale.
 

Blumlein 88

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#9
I don't recall Atomicbob's plots having noise less than 100 dB down.

I recall them looking more like the well behaved Jotunheim plot Jason provided and I reposted above. Which looks superficially like Amir's plots, too, until you look at the scale.
I've not seen Atomic Bob measures on the Lyr. I was referring to other Schiit gear.

Can you point to AB measuring the Lyr.
 
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#10
I've not seen Atomic Bob measures on the Lyr. I was referring to other Schiit gear.

Can you point to AB measuring the Lyr.
I don't have that measurement. I meant, in general. I can go look at SBAF for a specific plot, if you insist. My point is that no one is seeing or reacting as strongly as Amir is to Schiit. (Okay, maybe JA, but he got a bad taste in his mouth on Ragnarok.)
 

Blumlein 88

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#11
I don't have that measurement. I meant, in general. I can go look at SBAF for a specific plot, if you insist. My point is that no one is seeing or reacting as strongly as Amir is to Schiit. (Okay, maybe JA, but he got a bad taste in his mouth on Ragnarok.)
Yes, the Ragnarok. One of those other devices I had in mind.

I'll leave off the first three Schiit comments that go so well with what you said above. It is tough to do as the sentence on the screen is just begging for it.

But I'll resist.

WHEW!

PS-I think Ragnarok was a better movie than an amp. :)
 
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#12
Yes, the Ragnarok. One of those other devices I had in mind.

I'll leave off the first three Schiit comments that go so well with what you said above. It is tough to do as the sentence on the screen is just begging for it.

But I'll resist.

WHEW!

PS-I think Ragnarok was a better movie than an amp. :)
I wouldn't buy it either, but that's my choice. My use case would include A/V and therefore would include non-musical waveforms that would confuse the bias circuit.

But that's my choice, and I wouldn't denigrate someone for choosing otherwise.
 

amirm

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#13
Atomicbob doesn't spaz out over his readings.
Has he ever complained about any Schiit devices or measurements?

Remember, I always compare two devices. In that context, it is easy to highlight the more performant of the two. Abob on the other hand, throws a hundred measurements at you, of a single device, with almost no commentary. As a result, I am confident most people don't even try to understand what he has post, and how they compare to competing devices.

Here is a great example. I went there and first measurement I found was the Schiit Modi Multibit. There, there is this measurement:

upload_2018-4-3_20-39-54.png


This is a test of a -90 db sine wave. Does that look like a sine wave to you? Of course not.
Here is his take on it:

upload_2018-4-3_20-42-3.png


Slightly? He needs to have in blinking red lights that this DAC is incapable of reproducing CD format correctly.

Net, net, his measurements do show serious errors in products. It is just that he does his best to a) paper over them and b) bombards you with so much data that you get lost in it.

He either doesn't have a good reference to know what is good and what is bad, has affinity for the brand, or both.

I on the hand, don't care. :) I am going to point out what I see and back it with clear demonstration/comparison with other products. I put you, the customer, ahead of manufacturer. Or any interest of this forum. Others do not.

Now, do you hear these things, that is another conversation. Here, we are measuring and we better speak the truth about what the measurements say.
 
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#14
So just another keyboard expert know it all pretending to have credentials................................:D
Hah. The ISO 9000 auditor at a large company I worked for once labeled empty boxes and their contents (air). He had his own special sense of humor.
 

Blumlein 88

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#15
Meaningless trivia, but I have a 1964 Osterizer Galaxie blender that specified 120 vac back when nearly everything asked for 110 vac. Good thing too. My aunt received it as a wedding gift, and was going to throw it out around 1988 so I took it. Has been in use all this time and still works great. Here is a picture of one like it though mine is a little nicer looking.

I also have an electric porcelain decorated coffee pot from Japan I took home the same time. I don't use it, but I remember it asked for 111 vac. I wonder if that was a misprint?

 
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#16
Slightly? He needs to have in blinking red lights that this DAC is incapable of reproducing CD format correctly.
Can you hear that resolution at -90 dB? That hash between -INF and -88 dB down is inaudible. Unless you're a dog or cat.

Could you link to the post itself, please? I'd like to read the full thing.
 
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#17
Meaningless trivia, but I have a 1964 Osterizer Galaxie blender that specified 120 vac back when nearly everything asked for 110 vac. Good thing too. My aunt received it as a wedding gift, and was going to throw it out around 1984 so I took it. Has been in use all this time and still works great. Here is a picture of one like it though mine is a little nicer looking.

I also have an electric porcelain decorated coffee pot from Japan I took home the same time. I don't use it, but I remember it asked for 111 vac. I wonder if that was a misprint?

Yes yes yes, but how does it sound? :)
 

Dismayed

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#19
I don't have that measurement. I meant, in general. I can go look at SBAF for a specific plot, if you insist. My point is that no one is seeing or reacting as strongly as Amir is to Schiit. (Okay, maybe JA, but he got a bad taste in his mouth on Ragnarok.)
I react pretty strongly to Schiit because I owned a couple of their products. The Bifrost DAC would pass noise through to my headphones when there was disc activity on my computer. Sorry, but their engineering is crap.
 

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#20
Can you hear that resolution at -90 dB?
I can and so can you. But again, that is not the point. You brought up the topic of measurements. You said he doesn't complain about measurements but I do implying I find problems he doesn't. I showed you how he is showing horrible performance yet you didn't even notice it because he did a horrible job of explaining it as such, and paper over it for good measure. So are we done with my measurements not being good and me complaining for no reason?
 
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