Genelec, Ascend or Arendal for Upgrade?

[PapaEd]

A couple of months ago my enjoyment of focused listening to classical and popular vocal (particularly female) music was rekindled and spurred me to consider upgrading my audio equipment. My main music source is Apple Music Lossless (enjoying new Classical App). I was listening through Kef Q100s powered by Yamaha WXA-50. I liked the Yamaha’s features for streaming and versatility (to also use for TV) but wasn’t getting the soundstage, textures and definition I want listening to music. So far I’ve tried Polk Reserve R700 with Topping E70 and Aiyima 07 with WiiM streamer - big overall improvement but still not the articulation in soundstage I want and don’t particularly like the aesthetics of the Polk. Now listening to JBL LRS 305s to get some experience with powered speakers and find them to produce a clean sound, but a bit thin and shrill to my ears.

After reading many reviews and thoughts here, and elsewhere, I’m currently considering Genelec 8030C and Sierra LX. I wouldn’t get a sub with either of these. I’m also interested in Arendal Bookshelf 1961 for which I would consider a sub. Based on what I've been told/read any of these speakers will do fine placed close to or on a wall.

My listening space is about 14’X14’ but opens to a dining area and kitchen. I listen from about 7’ away.

One other parameter for me is to get a bookshelf no higher than 15”.

I’m hoping to pick the “one” for my next audition and avoid another return cycle.

I could spend up to $1500 for speakers, but would be delighted to spend less.

Would love to hear thoughts

 

[ExPerfectionist]

As Jim said, you're not going to get much performance by having speakers mounted like that, pointed straight forward. Certain speakers can do okay next to the wall, but for the most part you need them 2-3 feet from the wall (to the back of the speaker) to allow the sound to breath and the soundstage to coalesce. No matter how much $$$ you put into speakers, putting them where you have those in the picture, you're probably going to get horrible sound, unless you get speakers specifically made for that application. Wall mounts are fine if you just want sound to come from that point in space for multi-channel surround sound, but that's about it.

Get them at least 2 feet from teh wall (to the back of the speaker), and experiment with toe-in angle to balance sounstage width and center image (eg., strong center vocal image listening to something like Norah Jones jazz or something you're familiar with).

There are lots of articles and videos online about speaker setup basics to check out. Here's a good one to start:

How to position your speakers for great sound

Location, location, location. No matter what audio equipment you have, proper speaker placement can significantly improve your listening experience. Here are 7 quick tips to help you get the most out of your stereo speakers: Initial placement. Decide roughly where you will be positioned when...

uturnaudio.com

EDIT:

You may not need to even upgrade your equipment if you get some speaker stands and set up your current equipment properly and are able to get good results. You definitely don't need $1500 speakers to get "soundstage."

 

[PapaEd]

Appreciate the comments about speaker positioning. I'm somewhat familiar with speaker positioning and it does make sense to me that bringing speakers away from a wall better allows a soundstage. I had the Q100s on stands away from the wall and didn't notice a particular difference than when they were on the wall stands. Granted I did not exhaustively consider subtle shifts in positioning. The Q100s are front ported. My understanding with the 3 speakers I mentioned are that they are suitable for being mounted close to or on a back wall. Genelec has a video which clearly says that for theirs and sells their own wall mounts, customer service for both Ascend and Arendal confirmed that their speakers would work well close to a wall. I have limited space and would much prefer a speaker that will do well mounted close to a wall.

If indeed I'm really swimming upstream in trying to get the sound I want with a wall mount, I will change course, reluctantly. If there are speakers that do well with a wall mount I'd appreciate getting thoughts on that. Thanks.

I play clarinet and love to go to live symphony performances. I relish the visceral experience of live sound. What I want are speakers that will get close to duplicating this experience from recorded sound.

 

[Sancus]

???

You only need a couple of inches of distance from a wall, as Genelec recommends, and they even make wall mounts for most of their speakers. There is nothing wrong with near-wall placement. Actually it's optimal in many scenarios.

In fact "two feet from a wall" is the bad placement. Either a couple inches from the wall, or at least 3.5 feet into the room.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

Now that that's out of the way:

After reading many reviews and thoughts here, and elsewhere, I’m currently considering Genelec 8030C and Sierra LX. I wouldn’t get a sub with either of these. I’m also interested in Arendal Bookshelf 1961 for which I would consider a sub. Based on what I've been told/read any of these speakers will do fine placed close to or on a wall.

How are you going to integrate a sub? If the answer is use the built-in crossover, I'd just skip it for that type of music. You're probably not going to get a great integration. Given that, I'd go with the Sierra LX as it has a larger woofer and better bass than the 8030C. But, I would consider the KH 120 II strongly because even though it's somewhat more expensive than either option, you can get the MA-1 mic with it and have room correction, which is a very big upgrade for most domestic rooms. It's also brand new and has better bass extension and power than the 8030C.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

???

You only need a couple of inches of distance from a wall, as Genelec recommends, and they even make wall mounts for most of their speakers. There is nothing wrong with near-wall placement. Actually it's optimal in many scenarios.

In fact "two feet from a wall" is the bad placement. Either a couple inches from the wall, or at least 3.5 feet into the room.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

Now that that's out of the way:



How are you going to integrate a sub? If the answer is use the built-in crossover, I'd just skip it for that type of music. You're probably not going to get a great integration. Given that, I'd go with the Sierra LX as it has a larger woofer and better bass than the 8030C. But, I would consider the KH 120 II strongly because even though it's somewhat more expensive than either option, you can get the MA-1 mic with it and have room correction, which is a very big upgrade for most domestic rooms. It's also brand new and has better bass extension and power than the 8030C.

The speakers in the picture and the start of the post are KEF Q100, not Genelec. The KEF Q100 manual states at least 9" from the wall behind it, although I don't know about the speakers in particular.

Just because a speaker "can" be used close / flush to the wall doesn't mean that that position will produce the best sounstage and imaging for that speaker. The OP's goal was to get "soundstage, textures and definition."

If the OP can at least try stands, stools, boxes, something to get the speakers out away from the wall and see if there's more of the missing soundstage, texture, and definition, that's a better place to start than putting more money into speakers that will likely experience the same hindrances from being up against the wall. Doesn't hurt to try, and it's free. The room and room acoustics are the the biggest determining factor for what we hear.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

Are you listening JBL 305s at home, where they are sounding thin and shrill? You have what looks like bare walls and I assume a window off to the left. A lot of flat reflective surfaces are going to exaggerate the highs especially. This can make things sound more shrill (if you mean shrill and piercing and not just "bright" and lighter on mids/lows). Just keep that in mind. Thin can be cancellations in the bass so it feels like there's not much there, even if near-wall placement yields a lot of bass reinforcement at certain bass frequencies. Big dips and valleys in 100~250Hz will seem like weak bass where a lot of foundational tonality and normal bass hits come from.

I don't think your Yamaha has any room correction either? So speaker placement + listening seat placement + room treatments are going to determine everything about your sound, regardless of what speakers you get. A sub would definitely help take away pressure of speaker placement determining bass response as well, so you could optimize for soundstage and detail without worrying about how the lows will be affected.

 

[lutefish]

I’ve been eyeing the Arendal 1961 bookshelves for a while - I actually bought them in Feb, but they were backordered until late March, and then they announced a delay until the end of May, so I gave up. Part of their appeal for me is that they’re not rear ported (or front ported), so presumably placement close to walls (or, in my case, actual bookshelves) is significantly less of an issue. The lack of bass extension def. calls for a sub, in theory, though.

 

[ExPerfectionist]

Ooh the Arendal 1961s are nice looking speakers. I have Ascend 340-SEs for my front 3 channels (170-SEs in the rear) from around 2009 or so. Have got the upgrade itch and looking at the Sierra-LXs.

OP you mentioned classical music, so I wonder if the Sierra-2EX V2 with the ribbon tweeter wouldn't be a better option for you than the Sierra-LX?

 

[PapaEd]

???

You only need a couple of inches of distance from a wall, as Genelec recommends, and they even make wall mounts for most of their speakers. There is nothing wrong with near-wall placement. Actually it's optimal in many scenarios.

In fact "two feet from a wall" is the bad placement. Either a couple inches from the wall, or at least 3.5 feet into the room.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

Now that that's out of the way:



How are you going to integrate a sub? If the answer is use the built-in crossover, I'd just skip it for that type of music. You're probably not going to get a great integration. Given that, I'd go with the Sierra LX as it has a larger woofer and better bass than the 8030C. But, I would consider the KH 120 II strongly because even though it's somewhat more expensive than either option, you can get the MA-1 mic with it and have room correction, which is a very big upgrade for most domestic rooms. It's also brand new and has better bass extension and power than the 8030C.

I would not plan on using a sub for either of these speakers. And yes, one of the plus for the Sierra LX is that they likely will have more than enough bass for me as is. KH120 II is more expensive by about $500 than the LXs but it is powered and and has facility for room correction. I really like the smaller size footprint of KH in general. Do you have any experience hearing these in a living room environment not as nearfield?

 

[PapaEd]

Ooh the Arendal 1961s are nice looking speakers. I have Ascend 340-SEs for my front 3 channels (170-SEs in the rear) from around 2009 or so. Have got the upgrade itch and looking at the Sierra-LXs.

OP you mentioned classical music, so I wonder if the Sierra-2EX V2 with the ribbon tweeter wouldn't be a better option for you than the Sierra-LX?

I have considered the 2EX V2 but lean toward the LX as it seems more versatile and has wide dispersion.

 

[PapaEd]

I’ve been eyeing the Arendal 1961 bookshelves for a while - I actually bought them in Feb, but they were backordered until late March, and then they announced a delay until the end of May, so I gave up. Part of their appeal for me is that they’re not rear ported (or front ported), so presumably placement close to walls (or, in my case, actual bookshelves) is significantly less of an issue. The lack of bass extension def. calls for a sub, in theory, though.

Same thoughts. The price point on these is also attractive.

 

[mj30250]

I have considered the 2EX V2 but lean toward the LX as it seems more versatile and has wide dispersion.

The 2EX V2s actually have wider dispersion than the LXs. The LXs have a larger vertical window, though (less important unless you are up and walking around a lot).

The LXs do put out significantly more bass and offer higher power handling. The 2EX V2s are a little more textured and "airy" in the top end, due in no small part to the wider dispersion of the ribbons. I own both, albeit in very different setups.

Subjective impressions warning: The V2 upgrade to the 2EXs provided a significant gain in midrange / lower treble fidelity and "spaciousness" to my ears. I generally find there to be a certain upper midrange leanness in most 2-way speakers, and the V2 went a long way in remedying this to my ears. I think outside of bass and sheer power handling I prefer it to the LX for this reason alone. Lacking a sub though, I'd go LX.

I also use a pair KH 150s (the bigger brother to the KH 120 IIs) on my desktop - again, in another very different setup to the others, so valid comparisons are difficult. These speakers are amazing and out-extend and out-SPL even the LXs. They also perform the "2-way that sounds like a 3-way" magic trick even better than the 2EX V2s do. They are narrower in dispersion, though, so at further distances this may or may not be a positive depending on your room and personal tastes.

Ultimately, any of these will sound great. They are all SOTA speakers carefully designed for a neutral response and good directivity (can easily be EQ'd).

 

[PapaEd]

Thank you for your helpful reply. Pretty much narrows it down for me to the Sierra LX and the KH 120 II (150 is outside my already much expanded budget). I will need to audition these and then decide.

 

[Sancus]

I would not plan on using a sub for either of these speakers. And yes, one of the plus for the Sierra LX is that they likely will have more than enough bass for me as is. KH120 II is more expensive by about $500 than the LXs but it is powered and and has facility for room correction. I really like the smaller size footprint of KH in general. Do you have any experience hearing these in a living room environment not as nearfield?

I've used the KH80s as surrounds and they worked well, but not the KH120s. They'll sound similar though so I'd say they make fine living room speakers for the space constrained at shorter listening distances. You said 7' which should be no problem.

 

[PapaEd]

I've used the KH80s as surrounds and they worked well, but not the KH120s. They'll sound similar though so I'd say they make fine living room speakers for the space constrained at shorter listening distances. You said 7' which should be no problem.

Thanks for you help.

 

[Descartes]

Appreciate the comments about speaker positioning. I'm somewhat familiar with speaker positioning and it does make sense to me that bringing speakers away from a wall better allows a soundstage. I had the Q100s on stands away from the wall and didn't notice a particular difference than when they were on the wall stands. Granted I did not exhaustively consider subtle shifts in positioning. The Q100s are front ported. My understanding with the 3 speakers I mentioned are that they are suitable for being mounted close to or on a back wall. Genelec has a video which clearly says that for theirs and sells their own wall mounts, customer service for both Ascend and Arendal confirmed that their speakers would work well close to a wall. I have limited space and would much prefer a speaker that will do well mounted close to a wall.

If indeed I'm really swimming upstream in trying to get the sound I want with a wall mount, I will change course, reluctantly. If there are speakers that do well with a wall mount I'd appreciate getting thoughts on that. Thanks.

I play clarinet and love to go to live symphony performances. I relish the visceral experience of live sound. What I want are speakers that will get close to duplicating this experience from recorded sound.

Look at Totem https://totemacoustic.com/product/kin-solo/
No idea if they sound any good

 

[lowkeyoperations]

I’ve had Neuman KH120 mki as both nearfield studio monitors and Mid-Field lounge room speakers. I’d say they would have been a little over 2m away from listening position and only 200mm from the back of the speakers to the wall.

The dip switches can accommodate wall proximity and I found them really good in the lounge room for tv playback and hifi listening.

I ran them without a sub most of the time but sometimes with an Adam Sub7.

 

[chang]

The 2EX V2s actually have wider dispersion than the LXs. The LXs have a larger vertical window, though (less important unless you are up and walking around a lot).

The LXs do put out significantly more bass and offer higher power handling. The 2EX V2s are a little more textured and "airy" in the top end, due in no small part to the wider dispersion of the ribbons. I own both, albeit in very different setups.

Subjective impressions warning: The V2 upgrade to the 2EXs provided a significant gain in midrange / lower treble fidelity and "spaciousness" to my ears. I generally find there to be a certain upper midrange leanness in most 2-way speakers, and the V2 went a long way in remedying this to my ears. I think outside of bass and sheer power handling I prefer it to the LX for this reason alone. Lacking a sub though, I'd go LX.

I also use a pair KH 150s (the bigger brother to the KH 120 IIs) on my desktop - again, in another very different setup to the others, so valid comparisons are difficult. These speakers are amazing and out-extend and out-SPL even the LXs. They also perform the "2-way that sounds like a 3-way" magic trick even better than the 2EX V2s do. They are narrower in dispersion, though, so at further distances this may or may not be a positive depending on your room and personal tastes.

Ultimately, any of these will sound great. They are all SOTA speakers carefully designed for a neutral response and good directivity (can easily be EQ'd).

Ever experienced the Revel M106?

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

I would get a measurement mic and build/buy some room treatment before I spend any more money on speakers if I were you. You don't have to shoot around in the dark like this. I think the performance of your system is largely limited by placement (of both speakers and listening position) and room acoustics right now. If you're willing to add a sub, then do it now instead of upgrading L+R and buy 2 of them as well as some means of integrating them properly (e.g. minidsp 2x4hd).

Mostly say this because Q100, R700, LSR305 are all extremely good speakers in the big picture, and I think you're underestimating the impact that SBIR, room modes/standing waves, high rt60 in mid+high from all the hard surfaces in your space, boundary gain, are all having on perceived sound quality of your system.

 

[mj30250]

Ever experienced the Revel M106?

No. I have PerformaBe speakers but not the bookshelves.