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Genelec 8351B Teardown (2nd Disassembled)

voodooless

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Sorry, I think it is 8330, 8331 because of the lack of bass, and the small diameter of the woofer may not be obvious, but it is inevitable that there will be problems at the crease after a long period of high dynamics.
I still haven't seen any convincing proof, other than you stating it would be obvious. The only reference I can find on the racetrack having potentially a design problem is this very topic. So where are all those people complaining? I can't imagine Genelec made them last exactly 5 years? If so, we'll know in about a year in case of the 8351B ;)
 

zhaowo

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I didn't say that...

I didn't say that either, but if it were really that big of a deal, I would expect that by now, we would know. These things are in use in studios all over the world, running basically full-time. The 8331A is now 10 years old and has a similar racetrack woofer. So where are all the people complaining about the things going to shit?
When I was listening to the 8361a, the vibration of the woofer was very large. The greater the vibration, the more the long creases of the paper cone would fold, and the sound effect would also change with time, because the paper cone's Cracks will cause the frequency of the voice coil to drive the paper cone to change (originally it should vibrate the air as a whole to produce sound) and the frequency of rebound will also change, resulting in a difference from the design frequency.
 

zhaowo

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I still haven't seen any convincing proof, other than you stating it would be obvious. The only reference I can find on the racetrack having potentially a design problem is this very topic. So where are all those people complaining? I can't imagine Genelec made them last exactly 5 years? If so, we'll know in about a year in case of the 8351B ;)
If the 8331 was not a hidden speaker, this problem would have been discovered long ago
 

voodooless

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When I was listening to the 8361a, the vibration of the woofer was very large. The greater the vibration, the more the long creases of the paper cone would fold, and the sound effect would also change with time, because the paper cone's Cracks will cause the frequency of the voice coil to drive the paper cone to change (originally it should vibrate the air as a whole to produce sound) and the frequency of rebound will also change, resulting in a difference from the design frequency.
A nice story is no proof.
 

voodooless

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You can call other brand engineers in the forum to see this article and see what they comment
There are 20 pages of people who already did exactly that. The evidence seems to be inconclusive at best. Don't get me wrong here, I don't know either way. I only know that so far, there are no complaints to be found anywhere. Sure it's invisible, but should be clearly audible as scuffing and/or degraded bass response. And you'd think that something like the smaller and much older 8331A would break even faster. The woofers are smaller, so probably have more excursion on average.
 

zhaowo

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There are 20 pages of people who already did exactly that. The evidence seems to be inconclusive at best. Don't get me wrong here, I don't know either way. I only know that so far, there are no complaints to be found anywhere. Sure it's invisible, but should be clearly audible as scuffing and/or degraded bass response. And you'd think that something like the smaller and much older 8331A would break even faster. The woofers are smaller, so probably have more excursion on average.
Not necessarily, because the smaller the diameter of the horn, the stronger the surface rigidity of the paper cone, which may be less prone to this problem.

If you buy any brand of speaker worth $13,800 and the speaker cone is cracked, I think you will immediately refund the money and tell the world, right? However, Genele cannot see this problem except for dismantling it.
 

zhaowo

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There are 20 pages of people who already did exactly that. The evidence seems to be inconclusive at best. Don't get me wrong here, I don't know either way. I only know that so far, there are no complaints to be found anywhere. Sure it's invisible, but should be clearly audible as scuffing and/or degraded bass response. And you'd think that something like the smaller and much older 8331A would break even faster. The woofers are smaller, so probably have more excursion on average.
If Genelec engineers don't want to change this long-side folding design, they will have to replace the paper cone with a polypropylene or aluminum cone, but at the same time the sound characteristics will also change.
 

zhaowo

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There are 20 pages of people who already did exactly that. The evidence seems to be inconclusive at best. Don't get me wrong here, I don't know either way. I only know that so far, there are no complaints to be found anywhere. Sure it's invisible, but should be clearly audible as scuffing and/or degraded bass response. And you'd think that something like the smaller and much older 8331A would break even faster. The woofers are smaller, so probably have more excursion on average.
What I want to say is that the problem caused by the long side folding will only appear after a long period of use. Depending on the frequency of use, some may break in 5 years, and some may break in 10 years.
The reason why I took the time to reply is because I don’t want my 8361a woofer to be damaged after the 5-year warranty ends.
It's not my improper use but a Genelec design problem.
 
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zhaowo

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In fact, I admire Genelec’s box and circuit designers. The DAC uses AK4621 for a few dollars, which only supports 24bit. The amplifier chip IRS20957S is also a few dollars. The op amp chip ne5532 is only 50 cents, plus an ARM chip for networking and DSP.
The power supply is also a switching power supply.
These cheap chips are not used by any hifi brand, but the designers of Genelec can make such a good sound with such cheap things, and they can still be sold at such a high price. It is really amazing.
 

voodooless

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What I want to say is that the problem caused by the long side folding will only appear after a long period of use. Depending on the frequency of use, some may break in 5 years, and some may break in 10 years.
The reason why I took the time to reply is because I don’t want my 8361a woofer to be damaged after the 5-year warranty ends.
Well, depending on where you live, you might still not be out of warranty. If it was clear that the problem was already present, then even after 5 years it would still be a warranty issue in the EU. The only problem is that you'll have to prove it was due to this already present defect.
 

YSC

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What I want to say is that the problem caused by the long side folding will only appear after a long period of use. Depending on the frequency of use, some may break in 5 years, and some may break in 10 years.
The reason why I took the time to reply is because I don’t want my 8361a woofer to be damaged after the 5-year warranty ends.
It's not my improper use but a Genelec design problem.
Well, this is just wildguess and towards whinning of some non-existing problem... Genelec is known to be testing their durability, and they used to honor design problems even if it's outside of warranty. They have been used for years and in heavy studio conditions, I don't see that imaginary "physics" would really be a problem. if it's a problem we would already see at least a few of the early samples cracked, and when it started happening, others will shine a torch in the gaps or dissemble them to check, but right now, none of these happened, only the guessing work in this post of people panaroid after seeing the photo of creeps here, it's more akin to worrying going out will be struck by a bird dying mid air and fall to your head, coz physics says it will fall if it dies.

here is a sample of a ATC driver, which is a very good and reliable driver (disclaimer: I don't think ATC speaker as a whole is still SOTA as they were, but the drivers of them are still very good as a speaker driver alone) you can see obvious crease in the cone, but it won't actually affect their longevity or delaminate with heavy use for long term.
ATC driver.jpg
 

RobL

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The cracks aren’t a problem because there are no cracks. What people are catching in those photos are shadows from stray reinforcing fibres at the bend in the cone.
Here’s my 8361A woofer:
IMG_0140.jpeg

The 8351A came out in 2014…how many split woofers have you heard about?
 

tmtomh

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Not necessarily, because the smaller the diameter of the horn, the stronger the surface rigidity of the paper cone, which may be less prone to this problem.

If you buy any brand of speaker worth $13,800 and the speaker cone is cracked, I think you will immediately refund the money and tell the world, right? However, Genele cannot see this problem except for dismantling it.

The speaker cone isn't cracked. That's a baseless assertion - I agree with @RobL's post just above.

The company provided high-res photos of multiple drivers fresh off the production line in this thread:


Here's one of the photos:

8361_2.JPG


The cone is glass-reinforced paper. The stated purpose of this kind of composite material is to balance flexibility with rigidity; hence two materials, one (glass) more rigid than the other (paper).

From the photo, several characteristics are obvious:
  • The two materials are not mixed together at the chemical or molecular level. The individual fibers are clearly visible, and the glass fibers are easily distinguishable in color (and perhaps reflectivity of light) from the wood/paper fibers. So the cone material does not have uniform flexibility or rigidity at the microscopic level.
  • This construction gives the material a textured surface, and a relatively rough surface when seen close-up like here. This is clearly visible in the main concave "basket" part of the cone, not just the edges.
  • Judging by the lower-right corner of this photo, the fibers appear to be arranged in a circular or elliptical pattern (which makes sense given the circular interior and the oval shape of the driver).
With these facts in mind, it seems clear that what we are seeing on the straight edge of the cone just inside the surround is a textured, composite fiber material with a curved "grain" pattern, pulled and secured over a linear ridge with a tight radius to it.

When you pull any material with a textured surface over a convex radius, the "valleys" in the texture spread out, and the "peaks" become farther apart. Here's a quick photo I just took of a plush carpet remnant:

carpet fold.jpg


At the bottom of the photo, the carpet pile is evenly textured with no notable gaps. On the upper left side of the photo, the carpet is curving over a relatively gentle radius, and there are a couple of very small gaps but the pile is still basically even-looking. Towards the right, as you get closer to where my hand is forcing the carpet into a tighter radius, the pile opens up and the large gaps at the apex of the radius are easily visible.

This is what's happening on the surface of the Genelec cone. Where the elliptical pattern of the fibers intersect that tight-radius edge at something close to a perpendicular angle, the fibers are bending over the radius - we don't see broken ends of fibers sticking up (like if you broke a piece of celery in half). Where the elliptical fiber pattern intersects that straight edge at more of a parallel angle, the surface fibers are spreading out like with the carpet.

Now, if the fiber pattern were exactly the same throughout the entire thickness of the cone material - if every fiber we see on the surface had other fibers lined up directly underneath it in the exact same direction/angle - then yes, the entire cone fabric would pull apart at those places where the fibers are basically parallel with the straight edge of the racetrack driver shape, and the cone would quickly disintegrate. But obviously that's not the case - the many, many layers of fibers are not perfectly lined up with each other, which is what gives the material structural integrity.

With all that said, when the cones move over and over, minute vibrations will eventually create small tears at the weakest points. But since the areas in question are glued in place, are they really the weakest point? Or might the weakest point be where the unglued portion of the cone meets the glued portion? Or because that unglued portion closest to the glued portion will be vibrating less, might the weakest point be somewhere partway between the unglued edge of the cone and the center of the cone - somewhere where neither vibration force nor restriction of movement is maximal, but the two forces combine in a maximal way?

And wherever the weakest part of the cone might be, which will eventually tear, how long would it take, and under what conditions, for it to tear? Five years of average use? 50 years of constant use? More or less time than the MTBF (mean time between failures) of some other component or material in the speakers?

The answer is, we don't know. I'll bet Genelec has a pretty good idea, though. And Genelec's "it's not an accident or a flaw, it's not a problem" statement means either "that's not a failure point in the system" or "it's not going to fail for a very, very long time."

One thing I think we can say with confidence is that the claim that the cones are "cracked," "tearing," or otherwise compromised in their design or manufacture, is a claim that has no evidence to support it, and a claim that does not hold up to scrutiny given the information currently available to us.

The one somewhat refreshing silver lining of this thread is that at least a couple of participants have been quite up-front (wittingly or not) about the degree to which anxiety, obsession, and aesthetics are driving their concerns here. So unless someone gets ahold of the exact materials spec for that cone fabric and does some complex computer modeling that proves the areas in question are likely to fail, or unless someone finds reports of distorted bass, or physically failed woofers at that point in the cone, these concerns have long ago crossed the line into FUD.
 
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zhaowo

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Yours does not have the same problem as the disassembled one. How long has your 8361 been used? Is it used frequently?
The cracks aren’t a problem because there are no cracks. What people are catching in those photos are shadows from stray reinforcing fibres at the bend in the cone.
Here’s my 8361A woofer:
View attachment 309178
The 8351A came out in 2014…how many split woofers have you heard about?
Yours does not have the same problem as the disassembled one. How long has your 8361 been used? Is it used frequently?
 

zhaowo

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Well, this is just wildguess and towards whinning of some non-existing problem... Genelec is known to be testing their durability, and they used to honor design problems even if it's outside of warranty. They have been used for years and in heavy studio conditions, I don't see that imaginary "physics" would really be a problem. if it's a problem we would already see at least a few of the early samples cracked, and when it started happening, others will shine a torch in the gaps or dissemble them to check, but right now, none of these happened, only the guessing work in this post of people panaroid after seeing the photo of creeps here, it's more akin to worrying going out will be struck by a bird dying mid air and fall to your head, coz physics says it will fall if it dies.

here is a sample of a ATC driver, which is a very good and reliable driver (disclaimer: I don't think ATC speaker as a whole is still SOTA as they were, but the drivers of them are still very good as a speaker driver alone) you can see obvious crease in the cone, but it won't actually affect their longevity or delaminate with heavy use for long term.
View attachment 309176
This is a round plastic basin, and there is no problem I mentioned.
 

zhaowo

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The speaker cone isn't cracked. That's a baseless assertion - I agree with @RobL's post just above.

The company provided high-res photos of multiple drivers fresh off the production line in this thread:


Here's one of the photos:

View attachment 309174

The cone is glass-reinforced paper. The stated purpose of this kind of composite material is to balance flexibility with rigidity; hence two materials, one (glass) more rigid than the other (paper).

From the photo, several characteristics are obvious:
  • The two materials are not mixed together at the chemical or molecular level. The individual fibers are clearly visible, and the glass fibers are easily distinguishable in color (and perhaps reflectivity of light) from the wood/paper fibers. So the cone material does not have uniform flexibility or rigidity at the microscopic level.
  • This construction gives the material a textured surface, and a relatively rough surface when seen close-up like here. This is clearly visible in the main concave "basket" part of the cone, not just the edges.
  • Judging by the lower-right corner of this photo, the fibers appear to be arranged in a circular or elliptical pattern (which makes sense given the circular interior and the oval shape of the driver).
With these facts in mind, it seems clear that what we are seeing on the straight edge of the cone just inside the surround is a textured, composite fiber material with a curved "grain" pattern, pulled and secured over a linear ridge with a tight radius to it.

When you pull any material with a textured surface over a convex radius, the "valleys" in the texture spread out, and the "peaks" become farther apart. Here's a quick photo I just took of a plush carpet remnant:

View attachment 309179

At the bottom of the photo, the carpet pile is evenly textured with no notable gaps. On the upper left side of the photo, the carpet is curving over a relatively gentle radius, and there are a couple of very small gaps but the pile is still basically even-looking. Towards the right, as you get closer to where my hand is forcing the carpet into a tighter radius, the pile opens up and the large gaps at the apex of the radius are easily visible.

This is what's happening on the surface of the Genelec cone. Where the elliptical pattern of the fibers intersect that tight-radius edge at something close to a perpendicular angle, the fibers are bending over the radius - we don't see broken ends of fibers sticking up (like if you broke a piece of celery in half). Where the elliptical fiber pattern intersects that straight edge at more of a parallel angle, the surface fibers are spreading out like with the carpet.

Now, if the fiber pattern were exactly the same throughout the entire thickness of the cone material - if every fiber we see on the surface had other fibers lined up directly underneath it in the exact same direction/angle - then yes, the entire cone fabric would pull apart at those places where the fibers are basically parallel with the straight edge of the racetrack driver. shape. But obviously that's not the case - the many, many layers of fibers are not perfectly lined up with each other, which is what gives the material structural integrity.

With all that said, when the cones move over and over, minute vibrations will eventually create small tears at the weakest points. But since the areas in question are glued in place, are they really the weakest point? Or might the weakest point be where the unglued portion of the cone meets the glued portion? Or because that unglued portion closest to the glued portion will be vibrating less, might the weakest point be somewhere partway between the unglued edge of the cone and the center of the cone - somewhere where neither vibration force nor restriction of movement is maximal, but the two forces combine in a maximal way?

And wherever the weakest part of the cone might be, which will eventually tear, how long would it take, and under what conditions, for it to tear? Five years of average use? 50 years of constant use? More or less time than the MTBF (mean time between failures) of some other component or material in the speakers?

The answer is, we don't know.

But one thing I think we can say with confidence is that the claim that the cones are "cracked," "tearing," or otherwise compromised in their design or manufacture, is a claim that has no evidence to support it, and a claim that does not hold up to scrutiny given the information currently available to us.

The one somewhat refreshing silver lining of this thread is that at least a couple of participants have been quite up-front (wittingly or not) about the degree to which anxiety, obsession, and aesthetics are driving their concerns here. So unless someone gets ahold of the exact materials spec for that cone fabric and does some complex computer modeling that proves the areas in question are likely to fail, or unless someone finds reports of distorted bass, failed woofers at that point in the cone, these concerns have long ago crossed the line into FUD.
Obviously the 8351b in the picture is a crack, not a fiber as you mentioned.
The paper cone design of this speaker is not rigid enough, and it is designed with a long crease. Whether this is a common phenomenon can only be verified by more disassembly or shooting from special angles.
 

tmtomh

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Obviously the 8351b in the picture is a crack, not a fiber as you mentioned.
The paper cone design of this speaker is not rigid enough, and it is designed with a long crease. Whether this is a common phenomenon can only be verified by more disassembly or shooting from special angles.

Repeating the same baseless assertion doesn't make it any less baseless. You have no evidence for your claim that it is cracked. And therefore every subsequent assertion you make ("cone design... is not rigid enough") is also without a shred of evidence. Not to mention, if the cone were cracked - which it is not - it wouldn't be because it lacked rigidity. It would be because it lacked flexibility.

Since we can safely ignore your assertions unless or until you provide some evidence, here's another couple of illustrative photos. This is an old terry cloth towel.

First, folding it around a tight radius so the pattern of the surface fibers is not parallel to the width of the fold:

Towel off axis.jpg


This is a very soft and highly textured material so of course the surface looks different at the top of the photo than on the flat area at the bottom. But the surface is even with nothing that looks like a "crack" or irregular gap.

Now the same towel, same tight radius at the top, but with the pattern of the surface fibers nearly parallel to the width of the fold:

Towel on axis.jpg


Huge visual gaps open up along the apex of the radius.

Unfortunately I don't have an item in the house easily at-hand that has a circular or elliptical grain/fiber pattern, but this clearly shows that the angle at which the fiber pattern intersects with the radius changes the appearance of the surface. And as noted before, there's no evidence that this surface appearance correlates with any structural problem with the material.
 
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