Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

[Silou]

I would love to see a review of the Genelec 8020

 

[Jon AA]

I seem to recall my AVR from 10 years ago had an Audyssey calibrated "flat" mode?

But it does beg the question, do most people prefer flat?

It does have a "flat mode" but that's for a flat in-room steady state response, which few people would prefer. I'm talking about EQing the speaker flat using 1m gated measurements or the like for the high frequencies, following the philosophy Dr. Toole a bit better.

I agree though, it would be interesting to see how well DSP does at taming a "bad" speaker in these ASRM tests. Would be really good to know if DSP can make your $100 Costco speakers measure like $6000 boutique monitors. Then have a discussion about DSP room EQ preferences.

Yup, though I don't think one needs to take it to such cost extremes. I think as Amir populates this databass, we'll find plenty of pretty expensive passive speakers leave quite a bit of room for improvement in their on-axis response that some EQ could help quite a bit.

 

[Jon AA]

I would be interested in an Audyssey step-by-step correction procedure. Feel free to PM me.

I'm still working on refining the technique but I do plan to do a full write-up in the next couple of weeks if I can make it sound easy enough the average guy with measuring equipment should be able to follow it.

 

[QMuse]

In free space?

App 1m from each wall in the corner. So yes, there is some corner gain there but I doubt those small boxes would be able to perform the same at that same position.

 

[restorer-john]

I can’t seem to find any info on what SAM is.

There's only one SAM. You know, the really cute one who wiggled her nose?

 

[tuga]

I have yet to see any real proof that cabinet resonance is an issue with any decent modern speaker. I strongly believe that designers would solve any such issue once they realise cabinet resonance found a way to be visible in FR. And if it is not visible than it is not a problem, no matter how much we brag about CSD graphs. Btw, I have already quoted Toole stating this, but if you are one of the privileged to know of some research papers saying otherwise please share it with us.

Blessed Be The Fruit.

 

[D700]

Yup, though I don't think one needs to take it to such cost extremes.

What can I say? I'm cheap. I want the best bang for my buck. If cheap speakers and DSP gets me 90% of the way there, then I'll have to have a serious discussion with self about chasing that last 10%. I'm betting there's tons of folks who came to this site with that in mind. If spending $6000 on speakers is demonstrably better that certainly helps justify the splurge (for some of us anyway).

Its just seems like if Amirm is going to test active speakers....then why not test end to end systems too and compare the results?

 

[Rockfella]

Thanks Amir. Very interesting review.

 

[JAP]

Ah ok fair enough. Genelec has improved their DSP since 2010. All these technologies were very much available back then too, though, hence my question.

Processing power has become much more affordable. We need to remember that releasing a complex design like that probably means several years of R&D when it's done properly. Also SAM dsp covers whole FR range. Not just low bass which would not be technically demanding at all.

 

[LTig]

Heh.. PLease check this, 2000 EUR worth floorstander playing at 100dB at 4m distance with THD of 1.65% (pls ignore the hum at 80Hz):

Nice. A few questions though:

• Is the spinorama as good as the Genelec and Neumann?
• What about the price of the power amp if those are passive speakers?
• At 40 Hz you will have a lot of room gain (up to 9 dB), did you take this in account?

 

[JAP]

Nice. A few questions though:

• At 40 Hz you will have a lot of room gain (up to 9 dB), did you take this in account?

This is where people usually go wrong. Genelec gives true specifications always described same way for every model. It's not necessarily comparable to other loudspeaker manufacturer's spec sheet. I.e. for 8361A they state: "Maximum short term sine wave acoustic output on axis in half space, averaged from 100 Hz to 3 kHz at 1 m ≥ 118 dB SPL" that is "Maximum peak acoustic output per pair in a listening room with music material at 1 m 128 dB". It's a lot of sound. In my room I have simply locked maximum output to -20 dB to ensure that I don't ruin my ears by accidentally turning the volume to maximum. I haven't yet found more than couple recordings that would not play loud enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

 

[Soniclife]

@Frank Dernie thanks, that's interesting. The only concrete feature I can discern from their website copy is dynamic EQ.

Do you know much else about what parameters the SAM system is measuring/modifying?

In particular, I find it hard to reconcile the following: "SAM lets your system achieve perfect temporal alignment between the recorded signal and the acoustic pressure generated by your loudspeakers" and yet, "The process is strictly causal and generates no pre-echo."

Given the woofer in most of these speakers is low-pass filtered by passive electronics and in all cases acoustically high-pass filtered by the enclosure it's in, the claim is implausible.

Not out to dis this technology BTW, like I said a few posts back, even if it's only a calibrated dynamic EQ, I think it's a worthwhile feature. Just trying to understand what else it's actually doing (which is apparently not what Devialet claims it is doing).

EDIT: also, "96000 inspection points per seconds"... um, that wouldn't happen to be the sample rate would it, lol?

They measure impedance and distortion as well. As I understand it they modify phase, as well as frequency response. When you turn the system on and set it to 0% you get the full phase adjustment and excursion protection only. You can then increase the amplitude correction in 1% adjustments. It always sounds wrong at 100% to me, but I listened to an album at 100% over the weekend, heavy rock, the kick drum was great fun, total lack of subtly, it's at 10% normally.

 

[Xyrium]

"(G)enny I've got your number
I need to make you mine ....8341ASAeeeM"

Nice results, glad Genelec is still kicking out some good stuff. High power for distance listening matters not for nearfield monitors, as you noted. Good stuff!

 

[andreasmaaan]

App 1m from each wall in the corner. So yes, there is some corner gain there but I doubt those small boxes would be able to perform the same at that same position.

Ok, but it's not just corner gain that's at play here. To start with, you're getting +6dB gain from the floor there. Then an unknown amount from back and side walls. You may well already be getting more than 10 or 15dB of boost just from the first reflections. Then you have all the secondary reflections. The critical distance in a typical room is typically less than 2m. The SPL that speaker is outputting in your measurement may well translate to less than 90dB @1m anechoically.

I agree that these small boxes would almost certainly perform worse, though.

 

[stevenswall]

I’m talking more in terms of off-axis performance; they have FR charts and polars.

Vertical performance is worse and there are some minor issues in the horizontal off-axis as well. It’ll get a worse preference score (with subwoofer).

That makes more sense. It sounds like you're saying bass extension and on axis accuracy aren't going to overcome the better controlled directivity of the newer models. (I was thinking the preference score on the 8260 would be higher without a subwoofer because other speakers would need a subwoofer to extend flat down to 20hz in a room... So maybe the 8260 without a subwoofer would be more like the 8341 with a subwoofer score, plus more because it's more accurate, though from what you're saying, that small advantage doesn't outweigh the better controlled dispersion.)

Unfortunate tradeoff. Maybe they will make one with woofers on the side or a rear woofer and seal and it get all of their speakers down to 20hz. Those little dual woofers seem limiting.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Processing power has become much more affordable. We need to remember that releasing a complex design like that probably means several years of R&D when it's done properly. Also SAM dsp covers whole FR range. Not just low bass which would not be technically demanding at all.

I'm not saying SAM is not a quality product that required a lot of R&D, but FWIW it's in the bass frequencies DSP requires more hardware processing power, not less.

 

[andreasmaaan]

They measure impedance and distortion as well. As I understand it they modify phase, as well as frequency response. When you turn the system on and set it to 0% you get the full phase adjustment and excursion protection only. You can then increase the amplitude correction in 1% adjustments. It always sounds wrong at 100% to me, but I listened to an album at 100% over the weekend, heavy rock, the kick drum was great fun, total lack of subtly, it's at 10% normally.

Haha fair enough I still don't understand though how they can claim to phase-correct a system without introducing pre-echo, though.

 

[stevenswall]

8361A is simply superior to 8260A due to amplification and 3rd generation drivers. Also dsp processing has evolved a lot since 2010.

In what measurable, hopefully audible, way is it better?

It's not more accurate and has less bass extension... I don't know enough about amps to determine if there's an audible difference between Class A (which I prefer due to lack of hiss,) and a Class D (which Genelec makes without much hiss anyway,) and their drivers directly contradict their whitepaper talking about their Minimum Diffraction Coaxial... 3rd generation or 100th generation, it looks like these are no longer focusing on the minimum amount of diffraction, and based on the specs, it's just louder with the large tweeter.

Sorry if I come off as pushy, it just seems based on the data that there is zero Genelec upgrade path from listening to an 8260 on axis without a sub when it comes to audible things like frequency extension, and accuracy across the largest possible range.

I'd be happy if someone proved me wrong. (These rankings might in same ways make me value accuracy less, as directivity control makes even more of a difference than I thought it would, which also in part re-entrenches my belief that all companies not using coincident drivers are at a disadvantage.)

 

[andreasmaaan]

That makes more sense. It sounds like you're saying bass extension and on axis accuracy aren't going to overcome the better controlled directivity of the newer models. (I was thinking the preference score on the 8260 would be higher without a subwoofer because other speakers would need a subwoofer to extend flat down to 20hz in a room... So maybe the 8260 without a subwoofer would be more like the 8341 with a subwoofer score, plus more because it's more accurate, though from what you're saying, that small advantage doesn't outweigh the better controlled dispersion.)

Unfortunate tradeoff. Maybe they will make one with woofers on the side or a rear woofer and seal and it get all of their speakers down to 20hz. Those little dual woofers seem limiting.

I don't think you can call a speaker with significantly inferior off-axis performance more accurate just because its on-axis performance has a 0.5dB tighter tolerance. I think that's the point here.

PS. I realise this is risking becoming quite semantic now though

 

[Ron Texas]

There's a lot of meat on the bones to pick at. It's a healthy discussion.