Thanks, I did as you said and measured the same 110dB (and indeed with -60dBFS test tone undithered), which probably means the Motu was not the limit.
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Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 (4th Gen) Interface Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Many thanks.
This is the file you provided:
The clicks are clearly there—they’re the vertical lines extending to 48kHz, even beyond the Scarlett’s reconstruction filter. I set the spectrum analysis to only show content down to -96dBFS, so they fall within the audible range. I visually boosted the gain to make them easier to see; the output isn’t actually that noisy in reality. Unfortunately, I couldn’t listen to the output to confirm audibility because all the DACs I own exhibit audible clicking.
The reason you see the noise "bouncing" is that impulse-type signals (our clicks) behave just like noise: they contain all frequencies, even though they only manifest for a fraction of a second. Because they’re so brief, it’s hard to judge their amplitude using real-time FFT since it’s limited by the program’s frame rate.
IMHO, this might be the biggest flaw of these Cirrus Logic chips. They perform exceptionally well in standard tests, but when subjected to more "esoteric" ones, they fail in this way. Chips from ESS and AKM, for whatever reason, don’t seem to exhibit the same problem.
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There's some speculation about the DAC having a Class H setting or a Class AB setting. The latter doesn't exhibit this behaviour, I believe.
Testing the inputs is much longer, sorry I won't have the time today. Basically it's better to keep 3dB headroom at the input, as it improves things, I'll try to report so that it's not too boring to read.
In the meantime, just for info, this is a loopback (analog out, line in, TRS) on my Motu Mk5 with the output set at roughly 2Vrms (8.24dBu) and input with gain increase (+15dB) so that to reach near 0dBFS at the input:
And now if I send the 2Vrms output of the Motu to the Focusrite (Line input) adjusting the gain to reach near 0dBFS too:
Noise floor is lower but distortion is much higher.
Things get better with input gain lowered by 3dB which sounds reasonable per planned utilization (user manual says to aim for -12dBFS at the input…). More tests to come anyways.
In the meantime, just for info, this is a loopback (analog out, line in, TRS) on my Motu Mk5 with the output set at roughly 2Vrms (8.24dBu) and input with gain increase (+15dB) so that to reach near 0dBFS at the input:
And now if I send the 2Vrms output of the Motu to the Focusrite (Line input) adjusting the gain to reach near 0dBFS too:
Noise floor is lower but distortion is much higher.
Things get better with input gain lowered by 3dB which sounds reasonable per planned utilization (user manual says to aim for -12dBFS at the input…). More tests to come anyways.
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The Class AB /H selection is documented in Cirrus’ datasheet. I believe Class H is the default used by many OEMs, the reason being the lower power usage and the claim by Cirrus that these clicks are too short to be audible. I have a dongle where you can choose Claas AB or H.
Based on my experience, I agree that you won’t hear the clicks most of the time. The presence of this issue doesn’t make Cirrus Logic devices unusable—not by a long shot.
That said, while the audibility of these clicks is highly situational, I’d argue that it’s still more noticeable than subpar SINAD numbers. On specific signals, you might hear a “crackling” noise, similar to a guitar amp starting to clip or the sound of an old turntable.
For most other signals, you likely won’t notice the clicks audibly, but they’ll still be embedded in the DAC’s output (they're very frequent). This is worth keeping in mind if, for any reason, you need to record a clean analog signal from that output.
Definitely a concern in the case of an interface like the Scarlett, even if it has no “pro” aspirations.
Waxx
Major Contributor
That is about the same specs as my 12 years old Steinberg UR22 (made by Yamaha). That should be better by now, especially with the modern chips around. Steinberg still sells theirs (now the MKII, but almost the same design) and it still sells a lot.
But today you got better, a Motu M2 has a similar price but is a lot better. That is what i would get now.
But today you got better, a Motu M2 has a similar price but is a lot better. That is what i would get now.
Yeah nah, as folks down under would say. The 2i2 gen4 can hit a higher SINAD than the old Steinberg manages in terms of dynamic range on the output side. It'll also handle higher mic input levels than the first-gen UR22 can even dream of (that still sported a lot of rough edges, including being relatively easy to damage when hotplugging mics with phantom power on), and sports lower input noise. The Steinberg preamps are good in terms of GBW and distortion at high gain, I'll give 'em that.
I will admit that the 4i4 gen4 is more like it if you want to experience the full capabilities of the converters used, it's got a number of upgrades like an additional fixed line-level input and a lower-impedance headphone output. I don't know why they stuck with analog volume for the 2i2, this makes that circuitry a bottleneck for the DAC.
Waxx
Major Contributor
I mean it's in the same league, which is a shame for a device in a sector where tech moved on and better (altough it already existed) became a lot cheaper and easier to build. This 2I2 is probally good enough for 95% of the users and it's cheap, but so is the Motu M4 and many others that do a lot better for the same price. For today's standards i think this is bad.
btw, i still use my UR22, it does the job. But for my main systems i got better dac's.
btw, i still use my UR22, it does the job. But for my main systems i got better dac's.
In truth, looking at Julian Krause's tables, this little guy actually performs really well barring its headphone amp. It's in the upper end of performance in pretty much every other way--pretty close to the Topping, SSL, Motu, Audient, etc... None of them are absolutely the best. Then you look at its haptics: top of the pile IMO barring maybe the SSL (which has a better headphone amp for certain). The reported longevity and support from Focusrite on this line of product actually makes this a pretty good buy if you intend to use it for a long time, and you should. You could combine it with power-sipping closed back headphones like the Meze with Brainwavs pads and really have something nice for the long haul. The elevated bass on the Meze is actually quite useful for recording purposes as it will alert you to unnecessary power wasting from thunking keys, foot stomps, mic pops/plosives, etc. For a musician/home recording-type, I'd put this on my short list of possibles. No question about it.
Vigovsky
Member
I think Steinberg makes good sound cards.
Sometimes, I used the youngest UR12 model with one input channel in 2016-2018. I made a transformer balanced output
for it in a Direct Box Art Audio Pro case. I completely changed this Box inside and installed Swiss Neutrik NTE-1 transformers.
I measured through the linear/balanced XLR output (NTE-1) and on the Steinberg XLR microphone input.
THD = 0.0007% ( - 6 dBFS ) 24/96kHz. It is attached. The sound card was connected via USB to a PC.
Later I used Neutrik NTL1 in different projects, NTL1 transformers are much better.
Sometimes, I used the youngest UR12 model with one input channel in 2016-2018. I made a transformer balanced output
for it in a Direct Box Art Audio Pro case. I completely changed this Box inside and installed Swiss Neutrik NTE-1 transformers.
I measured through the linear/balanced XLR output (NTE-1) and on the Steinberg XLR microphone input.
THD = 0.0007% ( - 6 dBFS ) 24/96kHz. It is attached. The sound card was connected via USB to a PC.
Later I used Neutrik NTL1 in different projects, NTL1 transformers are much better.
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Hi everyone,
I’ve been too busy this week to review the inputs, but I have a good set of tests now. I can say for instance that XLR (Mic) input at the back will saturate at 16dBu (4.88Vrms), as per the specs. I think Amir saw it saturate at 1.7Vrms (7dBu) because the input gain was at 9dB, which I kind of recall was the way they were adjusted after installation of Focusrite Control 2 software.
In the meantime, I re-wrote my review of the line outputs. I included tests with unbalanced cables (TS) on top of balanced (TRS). You might want to have a look because performances are lower with TS and it’s informative to know.
I’m preparing a review of the three types of inputs we have here (even if in the end, it’s really two simultaneous inputs only). The 2i2 Gen4 can also be used in stand alone mode, as a preamplifier (not connected to a PC), I’ll test that too.
I’ve been too busy this week to review the inputs, but I have a good set of tests now. I can say for instance that XLR (Mic) input at the back will saturate at 16dBu (4.88Vrms), as per the specs. I think Amir saw it saturate at 1.7Vrms (7dBu) because the input gain was at 9dB, which I kind of recall was the way they were adjusted after installation of Focusrite Control 2 software.
In the meantime, I re-wrote my review of the line outputs. I included tests with unbalanced cables (TS) on top of balanced (TRS). You might want to have a look because performances are lower with TS and it’s informative to know.
I’m preparing a review of the three types of inputs we have here (even if in the end, it’s really two simultaneous inputs only). The 2i2 Gen4 can also be used in stand alone mode, as a preamplifier (not connected to a PC), I’ll test that too.
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Using TS plugs effectively means that one half of the output stage has to drive 50 ohms. This could be quite detrimental to performance when two halves of a dual opamp are being used.
If you want to get "proper" unbalanced output, the cabling required will be a bit more complex, e.g. TRS to 2x RCA -> 1x RCA-RCA coupler -> RCA to TS or XLR, whatever you need.
Yep, but the user manual is not that specific:
Speaker Outputs R and L - 6.35mm (1/4") jack (TS or TRS) sockets to connect your Scarlett to speakers or an amplifier. We recommend you use 6.35mm (1/4") TRS jack cables for balanced connections.
I can tangibly recommend to stick to TRS too
That said, I could try with front input of my Motu that has a way higher impedance load than line input at the back. It could make a difference.
EDIT:
2Vrsm out via TS from the 2i2 to Motu Line 3 input (10kohms) vs Line 1 (1Mohm):
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@amirm the ADC section is lacking the comparison chart, just wanted to make sure it's included
Problem is that it would not be relevant since XLR rear connectors are for Microphone. Front are for line input.
This is the difference, with 1.7Vrms input as Amir did with XLR rear connectors (input gain +8dB):
And the same 1.7Vrms sent to front Line input (same input gain +8dB):
So it would need more testing to know what to compare to. I don't know how Amir usually setup this test (with what input voltage and what expected input attenuation, I mean).
Cheers
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