Flat/transparent amplifier but not speakers/IEMS/headphones

[Haider]

Hi,

I read a lot about amps should just be wire with gain anything else is a effects box yet the same isn't applied to headphones/speakers/IEMs. Shouldn't they (speakers/headphones/IEMs) replay back the signal without adulteration? Why isn't effect box sneer applied to the Harman target. If you had an amp that amplified the sound into Harman target and speakers/headphones that were flat you would end up at the same place.

Thanks
Haider

 

[RayDunzl]

Shouldn't they (speakers/headphones/IEMs) replay back the signal without adulteration?

Maybe should.

Physics/Mechanics/Acoustics gets in the way of that ideal, though.

 

[Jimbob54]

Headphone/ room targets are an attempt to get to just that , aren't they?

 

[fpitas]

Headphone/ room targets are an attempt to get to just that , aren't they?

Yes. Headphones are affected by the resonance of the ear canal and pinnae etc, speakers by the nature of room acoustics.

 

[fpitas]

Hi,

I read a lot about amps should just be wire with gain anything else is a effects box yet the same isn't applied to headphones/speakers/IEMs. Shouldn't they (speakers/headphones/IEMs) replay back the signal without adulteration? Why isn't effect box sneer applied to the Harman target. If you had an amp that amplified the sound into Harman target and speakers/headphones that were flat you would end up at the same place.

Thanks
Haider

If you're asking, could you design the headphone to measure flat, and the amp would EQ for the Harman curve, yes that could work.

 

[fpitas]

Hi,

I read a lot about amps should just be wire with gain anything else is a effects box yet the same isn't applied to headphones/speakers/IEMs. Shouldn't they (speakers/headphones/IEMs) replay back the signal without adulteration? Why isn't effect box sneer applied to the Harman target. If you had an amp that amplified the sound into Harman target and speakers/headphones that were flat you would end up at the same place.

Thanks
Haider

As for speakers, a "perfect" speaker will measure flat on-axis in an anechoic chamber. A reflective room causes a general down-slope of response, among other things.

 

[Jimbob54]

If you're asking, could you design the headphone to measure flat, and the amp would EQ for the Harman curve, yes that could work.

Must confess, I've never tried but one could take the measured response of a hp and eq it a lot closer to *actual* flat and see how bad it sounds

 

[fpitas]

Must confess, I've never tried but one could take the measured response of a hp and eq it a lot closer to *actual* flat and see how bad it sounds

Yes, you could. I suspect it will be pretty lackluster.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Hi,

I read a lot about amps should just be wire with gain anything else is a effects box yet the same isn't applied to headphones/speakers/IEMs. Shouldn't they (speakers/headphones/IEMs) replay back the signal without adulteration? Why isn't effect box sneer applied to the Harman target. If you had an amp that amplified the sound into Harman target and speakers/headphones that were flat you would end up at the same place.

Thanks
Haider

Yeah true. You could arrive at neutral a number of ways. But the reality is that transducers are the trickiest part of the equation...so the sensible thing to do is to get the signal to the speakers without alteration and then look for speakers that have good measured performance so that you know you won't be far off the mark and then adjust with EQ for the room.

The Harmon target is a preferance curve for headphones that has been arrived at after lots of testing and research that works for most people and isn't far off for those that it doesn't exactly work for.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yes, you could. I suspect it will be pretty lackluster.

I think it would be extremely harsh and treble-heavy no? In a functional sense, the Harman curve really just adds the bass that would normally be provided by your living room...

 

[fpitas]

I think it would be extremely harsh and treble-heavy no?

The Harman curve has a huge peak around 4kHz, as I recall.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The Harman curve has a huge peak around 4kHz, as I recall.

hmmm interesting.

I don't really see that when I look at the HC relative to (most of) the headphones measurments ftmp. Doesn't seem like there's any substantial 4khz boost generally...

 

[Waxx]

The Harman curve has a huge peak around 4kHz, as I recall.

You are mixing up the Harman Curve for headphones (that has that) and the Harman Curve for speakers in room (that is very different and relative flat, downsloaping towards the treble). More info is found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-find-harmans-house-curve-for-speakers.13912/

For headphones, the curve is adapted to how our hearing works with such a small distance between the speaker and our ear. If you apply that curve to a speaker, it will sound very bad.

 

[fpitas]

You are mixing up the Harman Curve for headphones (that has that) and the Harman Curve for speakers in room (that is very different and relative flat, downsloaping towards the treble). More info is found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-find-harmans-house-curve-for-speakers.13912/

For headphones, the curve is adapted to how our hearing works with such a small distance between the speaker and our ear. If you apply that curve to a speaker, it will sound very bad.

Wait...the Harman curve for headphones does not have a big peak?

 

[fpitas]

I'm not peaking my speakers at 4kHz lol

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Wait...the Harman curve for headphones does not have a big peak?

well, it definitely has a visual mountain that centers roughly around 4khz. But most headphones ootb also roughly follow that same curve above about 500hz or so. If you go through the reviews and look at Amir's EQ adjustments to HC the alterations made at the high end are all over the place. There's boosts and cuts but I don't really see anything that looks like a constant 4khz boost. Otoh if you look below say 200hz a bass boost of some sort is almost universally applied...

 

[JiiPee]

In theory, the application of specific "curves" in frequency response could be done at any point of the system chain, but in practice, I think the current main stream idea of having flat frequency response throughout the system excluding transducers (speakers, headphones, vinyl cartridges) is maybe the most practical. After all, achieving that goal well enough is today fairly trivial for electronics, but still very challenging for transducers.

Ideally, I would like to see a system capable to end-to-end flat response, and then provide a separate functionality for preferential response tweaking.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Ideally, I would like to see a system capable to end-to-end flat response, and then provide a separate functionality for preferential response tweaking.

I'm not sure what the difference would be. I mean once you introduce the room into the equation, flat is an impossibility...so we're always going to need to make some adjustments. The problem with speakers now is that if they are too poorly "behaved", EQ is harder to accomplish successfully. So if you get speakers that have good anechoic measurements you basically do have end-to-end flat (actually that word flat is problematic - neutral is better) response which you then EQ (either for neutrality or to whatever preference you might have.)

But yes, in a chain that has say 4 potential points of "confusion", if the first 3 of those points can easily be eliminated as such you might as well do that and then deal with the one remaining trouble spot on it's own.

 

[fpitas]

well, it definitely has a visual mountain that centers roughly around 4khz. But most headphones ootb also roughly follow that same curve above about 500hz or so. If you go through the reviews and look at Amir's EQ adjustments to HC the alterations made at the high end are all over the place. There's boosts and cuts but I don't really see anything that looks like a constant 4khz boost. Otoh if you look below say 200hz a bass boost of some sort is almost universally applied...

Ok

 

[fpitas]

I was looking at curves like this:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/truthear-x-crinacle-zero-red-frequency-response-measurement-png.286750/

Which do also come up in the bass, but that's not universal. The 4kHz peak seems to be.