• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Finally, music we can buy in 768 khz sampling rates.

fastfreddy666

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
72
"I think our ears are much more sensitive to phase errors than we are aware of" This is an opinion not fact.

Audibility of phase errors is real but it will only occur with certain signals and under certain well controlled and ideal listening conditions.
Even then the differences are very subtle. These test have been done with harmonic tone complexes and narrow band signals (sinus waves or noise) not with real music and only with headphones.

Why? if phase shift errors occur in music they will almost certainly be masked by the signal itself :mad: Psychoacoustics is a bitch.

The temporal (time) resolution of our hearing is about 1-2 ms. However Interaural Delay Time (ITD) is about 35 µs (depending on frequency and who you ask) which is about 50 times better than the temporal resolution of the individual ear.

To tell where sounds are coming from is the most important evolutionary advantage of having two ears so it shouldn't be that surprising.

Dr. Floyde (US researcher in Acoustics. He worked for Harman among others) had this to say about this subject and I quote:"

"It turns out that, within very generous tolerances, humans are insensitive to phase shifts. Under carefully contrived circumstances, special signals auditioned in anechoic conditions, or through headphones, people have heard slight differences. However, even these limited results have failed to provide clear evidence of a 'preference' for a lack of phase shift. When auditioned in real rooms, these differences disappear..."
 
Last edited:

KSTR

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
2,021
Likes
4,419
Location
Berlin, Germany
"I think our ears are much more sensitive to phase errors than we are aware of" This is an opinion not fact.

Audibility of phase errors is real but it will only occur with certain signals and under certain well controlled and ideal listening conditions.
Even then the differences are very subtle. These test have been done with harmonic tone complexes and narrow band signals (sinus waves or noise) not with real music and only with headphones.

Why? if phase shift errors occur in music they will almost certainly be masked by the signal itself :mad: Psychoacoustics is a bitch.

The temporal (time) resolution of our hearing is about 1-2 ms. However Interaural Delay Time (ITD) is about 35 µs (depending on frequency and who you ask) which is about 50 times better than the temporal resolution of the individual ear.

To tell where sounds are coming from is the most important evolutionary advantage of having two ears so it shouldn't be that surprising.

Dr. Floyde (US researcher in Acoustics. He worked for Harman among others) had this to say about this subject and I quote:"

"It turns out that, within very generous tolerances, humans are insensitive to phase shifts. Under carefully contrived circumstances, special signals auditioned in anechoic conditions, or through headphones, people have heard slight differences. However, even these limited results have failed to provide clear evidence of a 'preference' for a lack of phase shift. When auditioned in real rooms, these differences disappear..."
The phasing issues that Frans describes has nothing to do with that.
He's talking about the problem you have when recording with severval mics that you don't want to place too close to the instruments for a number of reasons, and you don't want to space the musicians far apart either. Then you have bleed from other sources to that mic as well. When mixing those delayed (and colored) bleed signal give phasing effects (comb filter patterns). That distracts from timbre and the pinpoint realism of the phanton sources.
Stuff like this.

-------------:-----------

I find the recordings, as far as I managed to listen to the preview sometimes a bit lacking in "3D"-reverberation which is due to coincident (one-point) stereo mic -- there is no A/B content (with interchannel delay) even for the room ambience which, for me in my setup, makes for too dry and pinpoint of as sound, sort of "hyper-realism" if you will. But that is just me, and this is nagging at the highest level.
Those recordings are marvels, sound-wise, and I really appreciate the enthusiasm doing this. Thanks, @Sound Liaison !
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Manufacturer
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,011
Likes
4,775
Location
Santa Fe, NM
I find the recordings, as far as I managed to listen to the preview sometimes a bit lacking in "3D"-reverberation which is due to coincident (one-point) stereo mic -- there is no A/B content (with interchannel delay) even for the room ambience which, for me in my setup, makes for too dry and pinpoint of as sound, sort of "hyper-realism" if you will. But that is just me, and this is nagging at the highest level.
If they were recorded with a Blumlien configuration, there would be lots of 3D room spatial ambience. The clips do have some of this on my speakers, but not as much as I would like. Excellent imaging and tonality though.
 
Last edited:

fastfreddy666

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
72
The phasing issues that Frans describes has nothing to do with that.
He's talking about the problem you have when recording with severval mics that you don't want to place too close to the instruments for a number of reasons, and you don't want to space the musicians far apart either. Then you have bleed from other sources to that mic as well. When mixing those delayed (and colored) bleed signal give phasing effects (comb filter patterns). That distracts from timbre and the pinpoint realism of the phanton sources.
Stuff like this.

-------------:-----------

I find the recordings, as far as I managed to listen to the preview sometimes a bit lacking in "3D"-reverberation which is due to coincident (one-point) stereo mic -- there is no A/B content (with interchannel delay) even for the room ambience which, for me in my setup, makes for too dry and pinpoint of as sound, sort of "hyper-realism" if you will. But that is just me, and this is nagging at the highest level.
Those recordings are marvels, sound-wise, and I really appreciate the enthusiasm doing this. Thanks, @Sound Liaison !
 

KSTR

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
2,021
Likes
4,419
Location
Berlin, Germany
If they were recorded with a Blumlien configuration, there would be lots of 3D room spatial ambience.
Well, from the double figure-of-eight patterns there would be more room sound in relation to the main signal but still no A/B content.

I'd love if there were a bit of large-A/B recorded room ambience recorded further back in the room, using omnis or cardioids, and I like the kind of fuzzy room picture one gets from this. The comb filter patterns trigger random (and fake) 3D HRTF-related spacial cues and I'm a sucker for that kind of ambience projection.
 

fastfreddy666

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2021
Messages
47
Likes
72
Don't get me wrong. I love the releases of Sound Liaison. However I don't think hi-res audio is better than CD. I happen to have the CD "Thousand Shades Of Blue" by the same band, Carmen Gomes inc, recorded live in 2012.It's straight from the 24/96 master. This was back in the day 24/96 (and CD?) was apparently still good enough. I hope it was dithered properly when it was down-sampled to CD ;) It's a wonderful album. I still love the tactility of physical formats. I prefer CD because the SQ is objectively better than Vinyl. Although I have to admit that I "ripped" most of my collection to FLAC for convenience and the CDs and Vinyl records ended up in the spare room. Something, Something, NAS.

I also liked "Up Jumped The Devil... Discovering The Music Of Robert Johnson Part 1" (2020) also by the same band. I downloaded the album in 24/96 FLAC format. For me this is already overkill but I didn't have a choice. The album is also a lot cheaper than supposedly higher res formats. Lucky me. FLAC 24/96 €16,99 DSD 512 FS €29,99. DXD €21,99 (WAV). (1) This got to be a joke, right?

Let me explain. DXD is a PCM format that has a very high sampling rate of 352.8kHz / 24bit. The data rate is only 8.4672 Mbit/s per channel. (2.12MB/s in total). In comparison 512fs DSD (512 times the sampling rate of CD is a staggering 22.5792 Mhz) has a total data rate of 45.158 Mbit/s (5.64 MB/s. It's a lot, okay?) This means that a six minute audio file is roughly 2GB. But wait. you pay €8 more for the up sampled DSD512 version while the original recording was in DXD format? How does that work exactly? You know, scientifically speaking.... Whatever. Unfortunately the science does not justify paying more for the DXD or DSD files (and waste valuable SSD/HDD space in the process) when it's very hard to hear any difference.

Some evidence (controlled double blind test):

DVD-Audio (PCM) versus SACD (2)

In September 2007, the Audio Engineering Society published the results of a year-long trial, in which a range of subjects including professional recording engineers were asked to discern the difference between high-resolution audio sources (including SACD and DVD-Audio) and a compact disc audio (44.1 kHz/16 bit) conversion of the same source material under double-blind test conditions. Out of 554 trials, there were 276 correct answers, a 49.8% success rate corresponding almost exactly to the 50% that would have been expected by chance guessing alone.
(3)

Fool me once.... download FLAC. (I also prefer the format over DSD or DXD because you can include metadata (tagging) so you can easily add them to a database of your choice. The use of FLAC also saves space because the files are losslessly compressed (linear predictive coding and variable length Golomb-Rice codes with a dash of run-length encoding).

I just can't understand why somebody would want to use a Studer A80 to master the recording. This was supposedly a tribute to recording engineer Al Schmitt. (4) He embraced digital later in his life. A citation from his aptly titled book On the record: "We spent several years mixing to both analogue and digital and comparing them. Digital kept getting better and better, and finally we just decided we liked the [digital] mixes the best. Now, that’s all we use.”

Digital is king, baby! 44.1khz/16bit is sufficient for audio playback. If I understand Shannon's information theory correctly, that is. The field is an amalgam of probability theory, statistics, computer science, statistical mechanics, information engineering, and electrical engineering. Needless to say, it's complicated. For recording you should use at least 24/96 (or whatever your audio interface supports) because of the extra headroom and use of plug-ins during the mixing phase). Internally your DAW is using 32 bit floating point numbers. If we were to write out the number of total possible amplitude levels, this number would have over 70 zeroes. This is why we use a scientific notation (IEEE 754 single-precision binary floating-point format) with a fixed number of significant digits (In this case 23 bits) and scaled using an exponent (8 bits)...

Let the good times roll.

(1) https://www.nativedsd.com/product/sl1043a-up-jumped-the-devil/
(2) https://web.archive.org/web/2007092...te/diplomarbeiten/dsdvspcm/aes_paper_6086.pdf
(3) https://audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/galo2941.pdf
(4) https://www.nativedsd.com/news/carmen-gomes-inc-release-new-album-ray/
 
Last edited:

Sound Liaison

Member
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
52
Likes
102
The phasing issues that Frans describes has nothing to do with that.
He's talking about the problem you have when recording with severval mics that you don't want to place too close to the instruments for a number of reasons, and you don't want to space the musicians far apart either. Then you have bleed from other sources to that mic as well. When mixing those delayed (and colored) bleed signal give phasing effects (comb filter patterns). That distracts from timbre and the pinpoint realism of the phanton sources.
Stuff like this.

-------------:-----------

I find the recordings, as far as I managed to listen to the preview sometimes a bit lacking in "3D"-reverberation which is due to coincident (one-point) stereo mic -- there is no A/B content (with interchannel delay) even for the room ambience which, for me in my setup, makes for too dry and pinpoint of as sound, sort of "hyper-realism" if you will. But that is just me, and this is nagging at the highest level.
Those recordings are marvels, sound-wise, and I really appreciate the enthusiasm doing this. Thanks, @Sound Liaison !
That's it.
 

Sound Liaison

Member
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
52
Likes
102
Don't get me wrong. I love the releases of Sound Liaison. However I don't think hi-res audio is better than CD. I happen to have the CD "Thousand Shades Of Blue" by the same band, Carmen Gomes inc, recorded live in 2012.It's straight from the 24/96 master. This was back in the day 24/96 (and CD?) was apparently still good enough. I hope it was dithered properly when it was down-sampled to CD ;) It's a wonderful album. I still love the tactility of physical formats. I prefer CD because the SQ is objectively better than Vinyl. Although I have to admit that I "ripped" most of my collection to FLAC for convenience and the CDs and Vinyl records ended up in the spare room. Something, Something, NAS.

I also liked "Up Jumped The Devil... Discovering The Music Of Robert Johnson Part 1" (2020) also by the same band. I downloaded the album in 24/96 FLAC format. For me this is already overkill but I didn't have a choice. The album is also a lot cheaper than supposedly higher res formats. Lucky me. FLAC 24/96 €16,99 DSD 512 FS €29,99. DXD €21,99 (WAV). (1) This got to be a joke, right?



Let the good times roll.

(1) https://www.nativedsd.com/product/sl1043a-up-jumped-the-devil/
(2) https://web.archive.org/web/2007092...te/diplomarbeiten/dsdvspcm/aes_paper_6086.pdf
(3) https://audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/galo2941.pdf
(4) https://www.nativedsd.com/news/carmen-gomes-inc-release-new-album-ray/
Thank-you! Fast Freddy!
All the albums Carmen Gomes has made for Sound Liaison are available at her https://carmengomes.bandcamp.com/ site in Redbook CD or as flac downloads. Also, Up jumped the Devil.

a2904498016_2.jpg
a2564954823_2.jpg
a0642215549_2.jpg
a2564954823_2.jpg


The album was very well received. Here is one of the best reviews from
Positive-Feedback.com A Creative Forum for the Audio Arts.
With this completely unexpected treatment of the great Robert Johnson's songs, Carmen Gomes Inc. surprises and delights me. I was expecting blues, of course, but the band's interpretations are a unique fusing of blues, bebop and contemporary rhythms. A refreshing new look based more around the lyrics and the mood of the songs. This is another exceptional recording from Sound Liaison's recording engineer Frans de Rond.
Gomes' sultry voice is captured beautifully—clear, present, rich—with a "reach out and touch" immediacy. De Rond starts with his typical set up for his One Mic recordings, a main central Josephson C700S stereo microphone to capture the overall sound of the band. Then he adds just a bit here and a bit there: a support microphone on Gomes, a support microphone on Bjørnild's double-bass, a spaced pair of ambient microphones.
The magic, though, is in the delicate combining of these into a very coherent whole. The sound stage is stable, three-dimensional, magically immediate. De Rond is simply a master.




Carmen Gomez Inc, Up Jumped the Devil. Sound Liaison. 2021 (DXD) HERE


If you're expecting something traditional, you're going to be surprised. These are not the acoustic blues we hear from Johnson's own recordings, nor the electric renditions of Eric Clapton. These are a unique treatment bringing the combined talents of the band members in a sometimes dreamy, frequently atmospheric, always sultry blend of voice, guitar, bass, and percussion. Peter Bjørnild, bassist, arranger and producer, writes, "More than playing parts, guitarist Folker Tettero and drummer Bert Kamsteeg are playing moods. I actually asked Bert to play the lyrics instead of the drums... Throughout the album Folker is in constant dialogue with Carmen's melody line, sometimes edging her on and at other times comforting her. Folker decided to use an electric 12 string guitar on the small miniatures."


Each of the Robert Johnson songs are framed by with small instrumental miniatures written by Bjørnild and Gomes. They add tremendously to the overall effect of a "frame story" where each song is a picture set within the larger overall frame of the album: "Robert walking late at night, en route in the Mississippi Delta, reflecting back on his life."





Blues legend Robert Leroy Johnson (May 8, 1911 – August 16, 1938) made some landmark recordings in 1936 and 1937. These recordings are available in various reissues, including most notably the 1961 compilation released on Columbia Records, "King of the Delta Blues Singers."





But just to be clear: this new album from Carmen Gomes Inc. is not pure unalloyed Robert Johnson. It is a fresh imagining, in contemporary musical language, of the feelings and mood of those originals. And, as this, it works supremely well.





This is another exceptional recording from Sound Liaison's recording engineer Frans de Rond.


Gomes' sultry voice is captured beautifully—clear, present, rich—with a "reach out and touch" immediacy. De Rond starts with his typical set up for his One Mic recordings, a main central Josephson C700S stereo microphone to capture the overall sound of the band. Then he adds just a bit here and a bit there: a support microphone on Gomes, a support microphone on Bjørnild's double-bass, a spaced pair of ambient microphones.


The magic, though, is in the delicate combining of these into a very coherent whole. The sound stage is stable, three-dimensional, magically immediate. De Rond is simply a master.


Recommended.
 

kongwee

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
551
Likes
125
The temporal (time) resolution of our hearing is about 1-2 ms. However Interaural Delay Time (ITD) is about 35 µs (depending on frequency and who you ask) which is about 50 times better than the temporal resolution of the individual ear.
When it coming to monitor, people become comfortable less than 1ms latency. About 10ms the max they go. All old PCI connected Protools hardware achieve this, and many of my country studio still keep them till the end of lifetime. Of course, recording and playback are different.
 

Sound Liaison

Member
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
52
Likes
102
Indeed.
 

theREALdotnet

Active Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
259
Likes
297
Hi Sound Liaison, I purchased your Amulet album when it came out and like it a lot. Small ensembles recorded with high quality microphones placed carefully are just my thing.

I’m therefore rather distraught having received an email from Frans extolling the virtues of a device called “Schnerzinger's field elimination system”, featuring “Schnerzinger's pioneering giga canceling technology”. I’m not so much worried that this device is used during your recording sessions – I’m sure it can do as little harm as it can do good – but more that you seem to be drifting from a promising startup label producing carefully crafted recordings to a place for cultist indulgence. I suppose you have done your market analysis and will have some idea of whether a prospective clientele of rich fools will be worth the gamble. I for one will be far less likely to buy recordings that were made with the help of voodo rather than quality equipment and hard work.

I don’t mean to influence you in any way, but still thought I should let you know what I think.

A13C4BFD-B686-427E-81DB-A558ADFA5CDC.png
 

sarumbear

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
3,313
Likes
3,034
Location
Southampton, UK
“Schnerzinger's pioneering giga canceling technology”
They say: o_O

The secret to SCHNERZINGER cable technology lies in what is termed ATOMIC BONDING. These time consuming formatting processes, lasting for several months, impart outstanding conductor material quality that sets itself apart - even from the very best cryogenically treated mono-crystalline OCC conductor material - in all sound-related aspects, in a manner that can best be described as startling.

As dielectric, SCHNERZINGER uses a material which, with the aid of a high-tech machining process, DIELECTRIC CHARGING see FAQeven achieves better transmission properties than pure air.

The result is the virtually loss-free transmission of information along with a significant increase in information density, thereby redefining audiophile parameters such as resolution, soundstage, dynamics and musicality.
 

theREALdotnet

Active Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
259
Likes
297
Comes with a free, gold-plated waveguide and a gold-plated foil hat.

Hah, fools! If I ever get a foil hat it’ll be made from silver, hammered to the precise shape of my skull.
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
5,220
Likes
14,822
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)

Robin L

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
4,337
Likes
6,087
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Top Bottom