• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Finally, music we can buy in 768 khz sampling rates.

Kal Rubinson

Major Contributor
Industry Insider
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
4,090
Likes
6,631
Location
NYC/CT
They also say: "The following statements reflect our results collected in years of scientific development series for a trouble-free electron flow behavior within electrically conductive materials.
They reflect exclusively our own experience of the individual facts without any claim to completeness, general validity or correctness."

Got it!
 

prerich

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
82
Likes
65
They are clearly deaf, otherwise they would have spotted the 150 kHz sound and fixed it in mastering :facepalm:. How can you not hear this…;)

;):D:D:D:D My windows lol emojis won't take. LOL!!!!! Good comment...you gave me my first laugh of the day!
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
41
Likes
2
Yes, proper 768 khz music. From Sound Liason which does make very high quality recordings. I'm not aware of commercial offerings at this rate before though maybe I just missed a few. Alas it is only 24 bit instead of proper 32 bit recording.

You can download a free sample track which clocks in just under a gigabyte in size. Pleased to see if you've purchased it at a lower rez, they offer to deduct the cost of that from buying again in the higher rez format. Of course they are transcribing the master tapes from their Studer A80 RTR.

Here is a quote from a promotional email as I'm on their mailing list.

Ray! in 768kHz
The RME company is highly regarded by audio professionals.

Before we started working with Merging, RME was our converter of choice. So when we got offered to test the RME ADI-2 FS, a compact 2-channel AD/DA converter we gladly approved.

The first comparison with our Merging Anubis was immediately positive. Lots of definition, a beautiful soundstage with perfect placement. And after powering it with the Ferrum Hypsos external power supply, a sense of calm and control was added to the experience. This is clearly a serious converter. The RME has a maximum sample rate of 768kHz. To really see what the RME ADI-2 is capable off, we created a 768kHz/24bit file straight from our Studer A80 tape recorder playing the ¼" reel to reel master tape from our latest release.

Listening and A/B comparing with the Studer the result is quite convincing. In our opinion the sound is very close to the analog master tape.
We would like to share the results with you.

Therefore we have made one 768kHz track from the album available for free for a limited time period.
The only favor we ask in return, is that you give us a bit of feedback; Is this a way forward?

Do you also hear an even greater sense of realism compared to the lower formats or are you perfectly happy with the formats you have been using so far?
For anyone who would like to purchase the entire album in 768kHz but has already purchased the album in a lower resolution in the past week, the price difference will be refunded. Send us an email and you will receive a refund within a few days.

Happy New Year and best wishes!
The Sound Liaison team; Frans & Peter
I find your interest in 768 khz recorded high sampling rate larger files than DSD256 amusing as an oxymoron for someone who says DSD is a “waste” with lots of ultrasonic noise that your paying for.

What are you looking to “find” musically at 768 khz on a delta sigma modulator dac. Anyway? PCM Nirvana??? Lol.

Let’s review: Pulse Code modulator

DSD Direct Sigma Delta modulator

Which one is played natively on a delta sigma dac and which requires a conversion or two to de-emphasis, PCM filtering and interpolation to convert the data streaming into PWM with ultra sonic noise?

Which format is more “efficient” at filtering the dac ultra sonic noise? I’ll give you a hint the filters are turned off at 352 khz and there’s ultra sonic noise that isn’t filtered out. Maybe it will damage your speakers or worse your pets hearing. You may even experience Havana Syndrome. Yikes haha.
 
Last edited:

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
5,365
Likes
15,450
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
I find your interest in 768 khz recorded high sampling rate larger files than DSD256 amusing as an oxymoron for someone who says DSD is a “waste” with lots of ultrasonic noise that your paying for.

It's amusing, but not surprising, that you missed that he was being facetious.
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
41
Likes
2
It's amusing, but not surprising, that you missed that he was being facetious.
And he’s being facetious that he does know how PCM is processed in Delta Sigma modulator dac and hates DSD!

The first step in a delta-sigma modulation is delta modulation. In delta modulation the change in the signal (its delta) is encoded, rather than the absolute value. The result is a stream of pulses, as opposed to a stream of numbers as is the case with pulse-code modulation (PCM). In delta-sigma modulation, accuracy of the modulation is improved by passing the digital output through a 1-bit DAC and adding (sigma) the resulting analog signal to the input signal (the signal before delta modulation), thereby reducing the error introduced by the delta modulation.

 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
5,365
Likes
15,450
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
And he’s being facetious that he does know how PCM is processed in Delta Sigma modulator dac and hates DSD!

You're saying the thread starter doesn't understand how PCM is processed?

Ummm...ok.

You're making really good points so far.
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
41
Likes
2
You're saying the thread starter doesn't understand how PCM is processed?

Ummm...ok.

You're making really good points so far.
Yes! And surprising how many on here don’t understand basic dac topology which is mostly delta sigma.
 
Last edited:
OP
Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
14,652
Likes
23,729
I find your interest in 768 khz recorded high sampling rate larger files than DSD256 amusing as an oxymoron for someone who says DSD is a “waste” with lots of ultrasonic noise that your paying for.

What are you looking to “find” musically at 768 khz on a delta sigma modulator dac. Anyway? PCM Nirvana??? Lol.

Let’s review: Pulse Code modulator

DSD Direct Sigma Delta modulator

Which one is played natively on a delta sigma dac and which requires a conversion or two to de-emphasis, PCM filtering and interpolation to convert the data streaming into PWM with ultra sonic noise?

Which format is more “efficient” at filtering the dac ultra sonic noise? I’ll give you a hint the filters are turned off at 352 khz and there’s ultra sonic noise that isn’t filtered out. Maybe it will damage your speakers or worse your pets hearing. You may even experience Havana Syndrome. Yikes haha.
proxy-image
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
41
Likes
2
You made your point with Miska. There’s no benefit to him nor to anyone to pounce and make snarky comments by the “in crowd.”

This is a very toxic environment. What has been permissive of personal attacks by the likes of you and clockwork orange over here who’s the real dick added nothing to conversation and told “you’re drunk go home” last night shows how juvenile ASR truly is. The fact that the so-called “moderator” “like” his comment really shows where the “science” is at.

I’m out. Peace ✌
 

tonycollinet

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
2,193
Likes
3,131
Location
UK/Cheshire
You made your point with Miska. There’s no benefit to him nor to anyone to pounce and make snarky comments by the “in crowd.”

This is a very toxic environment. What has been permissive of personal attacks by the likes of you and clockwork orange over here who’s the real dick added nothing to conversation and told “you’re drunk go home” last night shows how juvenile ASR truly is. The fact that the so-called “moderator” “like” his comment really shows where the “science” is at.

I’m out. Peace ✌
Never play chess with a pigeon...... etc.
 

voodooless

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
4,246
Likes
6,692
Location
Netherlands
And he’s being facetious that he does know how PCM is processed in Delta Sigma modulator dac and hates DSD!
It's like wanting to paint a room and then going to the store to find out that you have to scrape the paint off the walls, instead of just buying a bucket.
 

Sound Liaison

Member
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
52
Likes
102
Don't get me wrong. I love the releases of Sound Liaison. However I don't think hi-res audio is better than CD. I happen to have the CD "Thousand Shades Of Blue" by the same band, Carmen Gomes inc, recorded live in 2012.It's straight from the 24/96 master. This was back in the day 24/96 (and CD?) was apparently still good enough. I hope it was dithered properly when it was down-sampled to CD ;) It's a wonderful album. I still love the tactility of physical formats. I prefer CD because the SQ is objectively better than Vinyl. Although I have to admit that I "ripped" most of my collection to FLAC for convenience and the CDs and Vinyl records ended up in the spare room. Something, Something, NAS.

I also liked "Up Jumped The Devil... Discovering The Music Of Robert Johnson Part 1" (2020) also by the same band. I downloaded the album in 24/96 FLAC format. For me this is already overkill but I didn't have a choice. The album is also a lot cheaper than supposedly higher res formats. Lucky me. FLAC 24/96 €16,99 DSD 512 FS €29,99. DXD €21,99 (WAV). (1) This got to be a joke, right?

Let me explain. DXD is a PCM format that has a very high sampling rate of 352.8kHz / 24bit. The data rate is only 8.4672 Mbit/s per channel. (2.12MB/s in total). In comparison 512fs DSD (512 times the sampling rate of CD is a staggering 22.5792 Mhz) has a total data rate of 45.158 Mbit/s (5.64 MB/s. It's a lot, okay?) This means that a six minute audio file is roughly 2GB. But wait. you pay €8 more for the up sampled DSD512 version while the original recording was in DXD format? How does that work exactly? You know, scientifically speaking.... Whatever. Unfortunately the science does not justify paying more for the DXD or DSD files (and waste valuable SSD/HDD space in the process) when it's very hard to hear any difference.

Some evidence (controlled double blind test):

DVD-Audio (PCM) versus SACD (2)

In September 2007, the Audio Engineering Society published the results of a year-long trial, in which a range of subjects including professional recording engineers were asked to discern the difference between high-resolution audio sources (including SACD and DVD-Audio) and a compact disc audio (44.1 kHz/16 bit) conversion of the same source material under double-blind test conditions. Out of 554 trials, there were 276 correct answers, a 49.8% success rate corresponding almost exactly to the 50% that would have been expected by chance guessing alone.
(3)

Fool me once.... download FLAC. (I also prefer the format over DSD or DXD because you can include metadata (tagging) so you can easily add them to a database of your choice. The use of FLAC also saves space because the files are losslessly compressed (linear predictive coding and variable length Golomb-Rice codes with a dash of run-length encoding).

I just can't understand why somebody would want to use a Studer A80 to master the recording. This was supposedly a tribute to recording engineer Al Schmitt. (4) He embraced digital later in his life. A citation from his aptly titled book On the record: "We spent several years mixing to both analogue and digital and comparing them. Digital kept getting better and better, and finally we just decided we liked the [digital] mixes the best. Now, that’s all we use.”

Digital is king, baby! 44.1khz/16bit is sufficient for audio playback. If I understand Shannon's information theory correctly, that is. The field is an amalgam of probability theory, statistics, computer science, statistical mechanics, information engineering, and electrical engineering. Needless to say, it's complicated. For recording you should use at least 24/96 (or whatever your audio interface supports) because of the extra headroom and use of plug-ins during the mixing phase). Internally your DAW is using 32 bit floating point numbers. If we were to write out the number of total possible amplitude levels, this number would have over 70 zeroes. This is why we use a scientific notation (IEEE 754 single-precision binary floating-point format) with a fixed number of significant digits (In this case 23 bits) and scaled using an exponent (8 bits)...

Let the good times roll.

(1) https://www.nativedsd.com/product/sl1043a-up-jumped-the-devil/
(2) https://web.archive.org/web/2007092...te/diplomarbeiten/dsdvspcm/aes_paper_6086.pdf
(3) https://audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/galo2941.pdf
(4) https://www.nativedsd.com/news/carmen-gomes-inc-release-new-album-ray/
Redbok CDs and 44.1 downloads are available from Carmen Gomes Inc's BandCamp website

a2904498016_2.jpg
a0642215549_2.jpg
https://carmengomes.bandcamp.com/
 
Last edited:

Sound Liaison

Member
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
52
Likes
102
Hi Sound Liaison, I purchased your Amulet album when it came out and like it a lot. Small ensembles recorded with high quality microphones placed carefully are just my thing.

I’m therefore rather distraught having received an email from Frans extolling the virtues of a device called “Schnerzinger's field elimination system”, featuring “Schnerzinger's pioneering giga canceling technology”. I’m not so much worried that this device is used during your recording sessions – I’m sure it can do as little harm as it can do good – but more that you seem to be drifting from a promising startup label producing carefully crafted recordings to a place for cultist indulgence. I suppose you have done your market analysis and will have some idea of whether a prospective clientele of rich fools will be worth the gamble. I for one will be far less likely to buy recordings that were made with the help of voodo rather than quality equipment and hard work.

I don’t mean to influence you in any way, but still thought I should let you know what I think.

View attachment 193332
Hi Realdotnet,
Sound Liaison’s own recordings does not use the Schnerzinger's field elimination system.
And we are not planning to. It’s a rather expensive piece of equipment and our budget does not stretch that far. (If I had to choose between Schnerzinger and an extra Josepson microphone I would choose the latter.:))
Schnerzinger's field elimination system is only used on the Rhapsody Audiophile Recordings (RAR).
RAR is an independent label. RAR is co-operative of engineers Michael van Polen and Frans de Rond and producer Harry van Dalen.
RAR recordings are being released digitally on the Sound Liaison label’s website as well as on Native DSD. They also release their recordings on LP, Tape and SACD; Rhapsody Analog Recordings

I have not experienced the field elimination system myself but I must say that the album Frans, Michael and Harry recorded with the Schnerzinger in the background sounds amazing in my opinion.

Frans is, in my 40 years experience as a musician and producer, the best engineer I have worked with. I believe that one of the reasons he continues to grow is his openness and never ending curiosity.
Kind regards Peter

Jeremy_voorbeeld300.jpg
https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/studio-masters/911-where-the-light-gets-in-jeremy-olivier
 
Last edited:

theREALdotnet

Active Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2022
Messages
262
Likes
313
Sound Liaison’s own recordings does not use the Schnerzinger's field elimination system.
And we are not planning to. It’s a rather expensive piece of equipment and our budget does not stretch that far. (If I had to choose between Schnerzinger and an extra Josepson microphone I would choose the latter.:))

Thanks Peter, I appreciate your reply. I just felt that your marketing communication citing pseudo-science was a bit unsettling for customers that thought you will continue to produce high quality recordings through application of hard work, experience and engineering.

Like they say, you should keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

And of course, brilliance and insanity can coexist happily inside a person’s mind. Isaac Newton for example was an alchemist and occultist, even more so than a mathematician and physicist.
 
Top Bottom