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Fight the living room problems: Cardiods vs nearfield vs multichannel

kuf

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Let's say you have a medium sized living room with a large opening to another room in one side wall.
RT60 is 0,5-0,6 s above 200 Hz. Limited room treatment could be done, like 2 or 4 half-height bass traps and a few diffusers or absorbers in critical places.
Listening distance is 3 m and the front wall is asymmetric preventing near wall placement of the speakers.

What could be done to achieve the best results in this far from ideal room?

1. Cardiod speakers like D&D or ME-Geithain for a budget like 10k Euros
2. Nearfield monitors at 2 m or less, like Genelec 8351 or similars plus one or 2 subwoofers for the same budget?
3. Multichannel setup trying to maximize the direct/reflected sound ratio. In this case with smaller satelites to keep budget in the same level, like 5x Genelec 8040 plus subwoofers?

Only for music, mainly electric music like old rock and similar.

Any other suggestions?

Like,
not doing anything, as my nearfield desktop setup (Genelec 8020+ 1x 7040) which I like a lot, could not be bettered easily in an untreated living room.
 

Frgirard

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Let's say you have a medium sized living room with a large opening to another room in one side wall.
RT60 is 0,5-0,6 s above 200 Hz. Limited room treatment could be done, like 2 or 4 half-height bass traps and a few diffusers or absorbers in critical places.
Listening distance is 3 m and the front wall is asymmetric preventing near wall placement of the speakers.

What could be done to achieve the best results in this far from ideal room?

1. Cardiod speakers like D&D or ME-Geithain for a budget like 10k Euros
2. Nearfield monitors at 2 m or less, like Genelec 8351 or similars plus one or 2 subwoofers for the same budget?
3. Multichannel setup trying to maximize the direct/reflected sound ratio. In this case with smaller satelites to keep budget in the same level, like 5x Genelec 8040 plus subwoofers?

Only for music, mainly electric music like old rock and similar.

Any other suggestions?

Like,
not doing anything, as my nearfield desktop setup (Genelec 8020+ 1x 7040) which I like a lot, could not be bettered easily in an untreated living room.
Rt 60 measured with a dedicated speakers. The rt60 must be the same all over the room.
In a room with a valid rt60, the amplitude of the sound must be the same whatever the direction.
Is it the case?
In a little room, the EDT must used.

The cardioid don't act under 100Hz.
 
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kuf

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RT60 was measured with the current speakers (Proac 140).
Room is about 4x7 m with a big side opening to another room (the two together about 6X7 m).
 

HooStat

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Good question -- similar to what I have been wondering, and I have been looking at very similar speaker options. You can't go wrong with any of the options, so it is more about what level of effort you want to put in. I suspect the simplest and easiest answer is the D&D. The Genelec 8351 with subs probably has more flexibility to the extent you can move subs around, and the coaxial nature of the 8351 also is more forgiving of off-axis listening. I think the highest potential is multichannel, but it is so much more work to install and configure, and it can be hard to find reasonable places in a room for speakers.

In the end, I suspect I will end up with the 8351 option and 2 subs. It allows you to go to multichannel in the future more easily than the D&D and Geithain, and is probably a bit more reliable and will have better long-term resale value (my opinions, not necessarily facts).
 
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Lorenzo74

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Let's say you have a medium sized living room with a large opening to another room in one side wall.
RT60 is 0,5-0,6 s above 200 Hz. Limited room treatment could be done, like 2 or 4 half-height bass traps and a few diffusers or absorbers in critical places.
Listening distance is 3 m and the front wall is asymmetric preventing near wall placement of the speakers.

What could be done to achieve the best results in this far from ideal room?

1. Cardiod speakers like D&D or ME-Geithain for a budget like 10k Euros
2. Nearfield monitors at 2 m or less, like Genelec 8351 or similars plus one or 2 subwoofers for the same budget?
3. Multichannel setup trying to maximize the direct/reflected sound ratio. In this case with smaller satelites to keep budget in the same level, like 5x Genelec 8040 plus subwoofers?

Only for music, mainly electric music like old rock and similar.

Any other suggestions?

Like,
not doing anything, as my nearfield desktop setup (Genelec 8020+ 1x 7040) which I like a lot, could not be bettered easily in an untreated living room.
1) Kii Three. They have the better cardioid pattern down to 50Hz.
2) D&D
3) anything else (nearfield+sub+dsp: Kali,Adam, Genelec) will provide similar end results but you’ll still have the issue of directivity of tweeter (narrow) and woofer (wider) unmatched so lateral reflection below 1kHz will unbalance the tonality of reflected sound.

I have same issue. I’m on 3 plus dirac live. No chance to match 1) c 2). I will improve one day when I’ll have more time to listen music…

Hope this will help.
My Best
L.
 
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sajgre

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What do you guys think about buchardts? I'm considering a700 for my big living room. (6k vs 10k for dutch 8c)
 

Marth

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I have a similar space and turned it into a awesome sounding place. Most audiophiles coming over are simply stunned.

The enabler for me is the pointsource developed by Linkwitz. He called them LXmini but a German pilot took over and is now building them with high quality craftmanship. They are called LXSirius2+...

They are probably the greatest bargain in the history of home audio... but that is only my own opinion of course.

It's basically a point source which is a monopol from 50Hz to 400Hz and a dipol with damped back radiation from 800Hz and higher. In between lies the transition zone which is a cardioid. Due to this sound source you have zero problems with reflections from the sidewalls and backwall. People who see my REW measurement typically think it is a fully treated studio based on the impulse response and RT60. Without treatment all early reflections within 40ms are at least -17dB.. If you remove the backwall/ceiling and floor its -26dB...


However the frequency plot shows that there isn't any treatment at all... RT60 is between 200 and 300ms. But I have two crazy room modes at 40 and 70Hz which have 900ms+... getting rid of them in a living space will require AVAA C20s as my wife won't approve thick broadband velocity bass absorbers :)

There are also 2 standalone dipol subswoofers...

I am now in the process of adding some treatment just to remove the remaining problems which are obviously caused by cancellations due to combfilters caused by all those reflections. here I just add 2D QRS at the ceiling to break up those early reflections and a small rug to reduce some energy hitting my from the floor. Your brain is used to floor reflections so normally those are not a problem but you don't want a

My wife loves the speakers and even allowed me to place them 1.1m away from the walls in our 4.5m x 4.6m room.

I will open the room acoustically via 4 AVAA C20 units to kill the two room modes soon.
 

Marth

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Most important parts of a working stereo system:

1. Speakers! Spend most money on those...
2. Room treatment. Spend a lot here too
3. Make sure the chain from source to speakers has low distortion.

All the other things are totally meaningless.

However you won't realize this until you had the opportunity to hear speakers which are matched to the room. Once you have such speakers you can change amps, sources, DACs and you won't hear a meaningful difference anymore.

having bad speakers not matched to the room will send you towards a neverending journey of improving your chain without making any noteworthy progress...

Improvement in audio isn't subjective... taste is, but improvement is objective. Even my wife...who hates most of the music I hear can cleary tell when the the phantom scene between the speakers falls apart of has holes due to bad placement.

All I can say is that I reached my final destination when it comes to audio. Couldn't be more happy and I have yet to hear a system which sounds better then my own. Except when there is a 350hz pitch present as I still have a combfilter at this exact frequency which I need to get rid of.
 

Marth

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One follow up information.

The LXsirius are not just about the radiation pattern described above. They achieve very specific requirement needed for tricking your brain and thus create and astonishing auditory illusion.

Whats important is the reduction of distortions This is done by driving each driver with it's own low distorition hypex amp. No passive crossover anymore!!!
As I use Roon Nukleus I also have a device which takes the audio Signal from USB, decouples it galvanically and reclocks the signal. It is basically a source recreating the USB signal from scratch. From there it goes into the Topping D90 via AES and then into the 6 hypex amp via XLR. The drivers of the LXsirus are special designs from SEARS which have low distortion over a large travel distance. This is needed to create the required SPL for the non-boxed dipol build.

Progress Linkwitz made is pretty much ignored by mainstream equipment makers as. Status quo is to have everything modular... When it comes to speaker&amp this simply isn't a good solution.

I believe that the progress linkwitz made will reach mainstream sooner or later.
 

abdo123

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I have a similar space and turned it into a awesome sounding place. Most audiophiles coming over are simply stunned.

The enabler for me is the pointsource developed by Linkwitz. He called them LXmini but a German pilot took over and is now building them with high quality craftmanship. They are called LXSirius2+...

They are probably the greatest bargain in the history of home audio... but that is only my own opinion of course.

It's basically a point source which is a monopol from 50Hz to 400Hz and a dipol with damped back radiation from 800Hz and higher. In between lies the transition zone which is a cardioid. Due to this sound source you have zero problems with reflections from the sidewalls and backwall. People who see my REW measurement typically think it is a fully treated studio based on the impulse response and RT60. Without treatment all early reflections within 40ms are at least -17dB.. If you remove the backwall/ceiling and floor its -26dB...


However the frequency plot shows that there isn't any treatment at all... RT60 is between 200 and 300ms. But I have two crazy room modes at 40 and 70Hz which have 900ms+... getting rid of them in a living space will require AVAA C20s as my wife won't approve thick broadband velocity bass absorbers :)

There are also 2 standalone dipol subswoofers...

I am now in the process of adding some treatment just to remove the remaining problems which are obviously caused by cancellations due to combfilters caused by all those reflections. here I just add 2D QRS at the ceiling to break up those early reflections and a small rug to reduce some energy hitting my from the floor. Your brain is used to floor reflections so normally those are not a problem but you don't want a

My wife loves the speakers and even allowed me to place them 1.1m away from the walls in our 4.5m x 4.6m room.

I will open the room acoustically via 4 AVAA C20 units to kill the two room modes soon.

it would be nice to see those measurements you speak off, with 1/24 smoothing please.
 

Marth

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frequency.jpg
ImpulseResponse.jpg
Reverb.jpg
Spectogram.jpg
reflections within 40ms.png
 

Marth

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Above measurements from the untreated room. All reflection are ceiling/floor/backwall related...
Backwall will be deadened with 20cm velocity bass traps next week. Ceiling with 2D QRD Diffusers going from 500Hz to 5kHz.
For the floor I will just use a small rug to cover the first reflection points. Some reflection from the floor is natural so no big deal.
 

Marth

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But those measurement don't tell you much about the core ability of said speakers. Clearity and imaging is extremely good and precise.
 
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