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Erins Review of the Yamaha NS-10

I think they need to be seen as tools. I don't know Yamaha's original intent, but as mentioned above, if you can create a mix that sounds fairly linear on these, you have built in a curve that is then played back over 4312s. Too fat? Dial it back. Then play it over your Westlakes or UREI 813. Like steel in a forge, over and over, but you never go back to the NS10. It has done what it needed to do.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Also, maybe they are used as a microscope on the mids to get voices and harmony right.

I think this captures the issue well. The defects were known and a process that used the defects to good effect on the end product was used.

You don't want to see your favorite restaurant kitchen during rush, you don't want to see what your mechanic does to make your car work, and you likely don't want to know how the engineers get the sound on the recordings you like.
 
Here’s a counterpoint for why they ARE useful.
…hint they are not for listening pleasure.

 
Have to respect Mr. Dr. Toole. Thank you.
 
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This guy is clueless. I would disregard anything he says.

Yep, he’s a ******* balloon, shills his self build speaker design plans that you can buy, naturally it outperforms anything else costing much more.
 
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I just watched the review. I always thought these are hideous sounding speakers, way too bright and lacking in bass. So I am relieved that the measurements confirmed my subjective impression.

Now the big question: why are they so beloved by sound engineers?
My recollection is that Yamaha was trying to break into the studio/pro market and was giving them to studios as part of their marketing.
 
More NS-10 Yamaha spec sheet.

 
It was originally a home "hi-fi" speaker...

My guess is that some mixing engineer or producer used them, won a Grammy, and praised them. Then everybody had to have them, and they were a cheap addition to a pro studio.

Quincy Jones was a paid spokesman for Auratone and apparently he claimed that Thriller was "mixed on them". But he was the producer, not the mixing or mastering engineer and you can bet those weren't the only monitors used. And, I've heard that Michael Jackson liked to listen crazy-loud so certainly he wasn't using them to listen to the mix.

...The same thing happens with "famous" vintage microphones & preamps. People want to use the same mic that Frank Sinatra used, etc.
 
I just watched the review. I always thought these are hideous sounding speakers, way too bright and lacking in bass. So I am relieved that the measurements confirmed my subjective impression.

Now the big question: why are they so beloved by sound engineers?

They have amazing detail/transient response and they make that hard-to-hear-on-flat-studio-monitors midrange easy to judge. If they sound hideous, it's not "them", it's the bad mix. Good productions sound absolutely normal on them. They do have that old hifi speaker "tone" but it's easy to get used to. I've been using the Neumanns as my primary monitors, but ever since I bought the NS10 they have become my primary speakers, so much easier to work with, I rarely switch to the Neumanns, just for specific areas they show a bit better (like below 100Hz, around 4k and 8k). The Studios are not sibilant or bright at all to me, if anything they're a bit on a dark side. Bass is fine, if your mix sounds full on them your bass is right. I actually do most of the bass mixing on the NS10s (without a sub). Finetune with the Neumanns or headphones but usually they get 99% of the work done.

You either love them or hate them. For me, definitely love.

He's doing it wrong. There's supposed to be tissue paper taped over the tweeters.

That was for the original, non-Studio ones. The Studios don't need that. The frequency curve confirms the old one floating about the internet. I was waiting for someone to properly review them for a long time.
 
Good productions sound absolutely normal on them.
I had a pair for some weeks and I absolutely don't agree, only few pure guitar recordings sounded impressive due to that region boost but almost everything else was sounding bad to me.

You either love them or hate them.
It seems so.
 
I had a pair for some weeks and I absolutely don't agree, only few pure guitar recordings sounded impressive due to that region boost but almost everything else was sounding bad to me.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if you agree or not. They have proven themselves as an invaluable tool for mixing and need no defence. There will always be people who bash them for whatever reason. Some just prefer a different sonic signature or they just do it because they copy others bashing them. Your "bad" is just it not matching your personal taste and nothing more.
 
Ultimately it doesn't matter if you agree or not.
The same as it doesn't matter if you like them.

They have proven themselves as an invaluable tool for mixing and need no defence.
They were used a lot for various reasons discussed in similar topics endlessly in the past, same as typewriters and fax machines, thankfully the world moves on.

Some just prefer a different sonic signature or they just do it because they copy others bashing them. Your "bad" is just it not matching your personal taste and nothing more.
Wrong, first of all there is a well understood correlation between what the majority of people prefer and that is loudspeakers with flat direct sound and smooth directivity, where on both the NS-10 fail. Second I don't copy anyone as I had them for few weeks. Third is that monitors shouldn't ideally have a sonic signature as you want to hear the input material and not it. Thus it is much more expedient to use neutral loudspeakers for such purposes and if you need a "magnifier" to amplify some frequency regions for some temporare checks to use an EQ for that.
 
At work if you get a new software for an application you use all the time it initially massively affects your work rate. It may have more functionality and be better overall but with the old app you could use it in your sleep and you knew all the short cuts and work-arounds.

I'd suggest using NS10 for mixing is similar. You know what they do and how to get a good mix off them. Swap to a more accurate monitor and now you have to re-learn. Slower, you make mistakes. Eventually you'll get there but why not just stick with the NS10?

Most studios have multiple monitors anyway so it's not like everything is done on just one speaker type.
 
I'm convinced that NS10s were NEVER EVER the main monitors used for mixing and this has to be borne in mind. Others above have confirmed they were used as a 'magnifying tool' for maybe getting vocal placement right, the rest of the mix done on better monitors.

I did hear a set of originals set up on a bookshelf in the main store of the company I worked for and sure they were 'brightly lit,' but they didn't screech as such. My local record shop has a pair set up very high and again, the tone isn't unpleasant at all (no idea of amp used or tone-control setting, however).
 
It sounds like you have absolutely no understanding of the subject and are not affiliated with professional audio world in any meaningful way and just repeating the same "neutral" nonsense you read on forums or saw on youtube.
o_O
I could argue on every invalid or flat out nonsensical point you made but it would take forever I doubt you would be able to understand any of it and it would serve no purpose. I don't want this thread to get ugly so please have your closing statement and let this thread move on.
Is this a threat?
 
Its a very controversial subject. I got my message deleted by a mod because my opinion is not confirmed by "science" so it makes it hard to make a point here. My tone was perhaps wrong, and I apologize for that, but I don't think the mod is right about requiring speaking about the NS10s strictly within the "flat curve" science context. I know this is ASR, but you gotta have some understanding what things are designed for. The NS10s are appreciated precisely because they violate the "flat" scientific standard!

So I'll try just this one more time.

ASR/Erin tests speakers based on a set standard. Based on this standard yes, the NS10s are garbage. It's true and I'm fine with that. But this standard exists sort of in a vacuum context. Some tools are designed (on purpose or by accident) to break that standard and work with that standard turned inside out. Because that's what the job requires.

There's a good article here about why "ruler flat" is not sought for in the professional world.


Also, there's a reason why everyone sets their EQ curve to a smiley face. Because it's musical. Science tells them "you're doing it wrong", but science can take a hike when it comes to pleasure. I'll do what I enjoy, thank you, science.

The NS10s are being phased out of studios, you don't see them as often as 20-30 years ago, but they're still very common and very much in use by those who appreciate them. If fact, I personally do appreciate "the hate" because, well, that just makes extra spare pairs available for purchase if you happen to need them. There are less and less mint pairs available these days. I personally went thought a lot of "scientifically great" studio monitors but was never quite happy (including popular Neumanns) until I got the NS10s. Haven't looked at any other monitors since (but it does help that I have the Neumanns). The NS10s make my job so much easier. Much easier than the Neumanns.

A lot of professionals hate the NS10s too (and use other monitors for the same purpose), and it's ok. Professionals have strong opinions about all kinds of tools they use, amplifiers, mixing consoles, compressor, all kinds of stuff and most of it is interchangeable and there are other monitors that can do the NS10s job more or less. The NS10s have been a butt of jokes and a subject of hate for a long time and it's also ok, who cares really.

Bottom line though, to judge them as a professional tool you must be a professional yourself and have a profound appreciation of what a tool bring to your work. As a music listener looking for a pair of nice hifi speakers, you will likely dislike their sound and your opinions are perfectly valid on their own and need no debate. There are tons of much more pleasant sounding speakers out there. When I say they sound "fine" or "good to me", it's just that. They don't sound fantastic by any stretch of imagination. But I personally use them as my desktop speakers instead of switching to much more pleasing sounding Neumanns 99% of the time and they never bother me.

So this discussion should probably be about people's experiences with mixing on them, not listening to them in the context of home audio. Mixing = love/hate, home audio = definitely hate.
 
Sorry, doesn't change the idea that a broken speaker is a broken method for mixing or even checking mixes.

Fair enough, sounds like you know better than thousands of engineers around the world who mixed your favorite music on these "broken" speakers for decades. You should tell them they've been doing it wrong. I'm sure your credentials are much more impressive then theirs and they will listen to you. I mean, 1000 internet posts = 1 Billboard hit, I bet you got them all beat.

Also, shame on Yamaha for releasing and selling broken speakers for so many years and tricking all those engineers into using them.
 
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