Entry-level R2R DAC Setup or Audient iD14 alternative for Hifiman Edition XS

[m3nthal]

Hi,

I've been browsing this forum and found that there is some controversy around R2R DACs which do not get high scores in the measuring department, but get rather warm response from folks for their "analog" sound. I am considering boarding the R2R train, but have question on how to integrate it into my current setup.

My current setup:

PC ---[ USB ]---> Audient ID14 MK1 ---[ TRS ]---> Heaphones
                                   ---[ XLR ]---> Active Speakers

Acitve Speakers:

• Genelec 8030

Heaphones:

• Beyerdynamics DT 770 PRO
• Sennheiser HD 560S
• HIFIMAN Edition XS

In my current setup, audio interface (Audient ID14 MK1) solves the problem with routing. I can have both headphones and speakers playing at the same time or separately. I can change levels on each output independently. If I replace audio interface with a DAC which has single XLR/RCS output without volume control, I would need to add some devices into the chain to be able to switch between active speakers and headphones. So to be more specific, R2R DACs in question:

• Denafrips Ares II
• Musician Draco

Both have XLR and RCA outputs, which should not be used at the same time.
I would like to be able to switch between headphone and speakers without re-plugging the cables.
This calls for a device that has a single XLR input and multiple XLR outputs, for example:

XLR Switcher?

PC ----USB----> R2R DAC ----XLR----> XLR Switcher? ----XLR---> Amp? --------XLR---> Heaphones 
                                                   ----XLR---> Pre-amp? ----XLR---> Active Speakers

Questions:

1. Both Ares and Draco are in the same price range with similar specs and features. Has anybody listened to both, how do they compare?
2. Is XLR switcher the way to go in my scenario?
   1. If yes:
      1. Will XLR switcher affect sound quality?
      2. Any good XLR switchers?
   2. If no:
      1. What devices would be a good fit in my scenario?
3. Is pre-amp required for active speakers?
4. Which headphone amp would you recommend?

Please advise.

 

[jae]

Firstly, welcome to ASR.

I've been browsing this forum and found that there is some controversy around R2R DACs which do not get high scores in the measuring department, but get rather warm response from folks for their "analog" sound. I am considering boarding the R2R train, but have question on how to integrate it into my current setup.

I'm going to address this very bluntly. What "warm" or "analogue" response from R2R dacs you have heard "folks" claim is of course, utter nonsense and fantasy. So, if you are making your purchase decision based on the hopes of imparting whatever this sonic quality is into your audio, or wanting to impart whatever qualities you're heard people talk about on reviews you have seen online, you should save your money because it will at most give you a placebo effect and a lighter wallet. I would not trust anyone telling you otherwise, because they are simply wrong.

If you truly want a "warmer" response, I would suggest looking into experimenting with DSP/EQing your headphones and/or speakers to find a curve that subjectively works better for your taste, starting at some standard like neutral/harman target as a baseline and then proceeding from there. If you cannot improve your sound or at least get the desired effect with very simple EQ/target curves, a R2R dac would definitely not be able to accomplish what you want, even if we did suppose that it would change the sound in some appreciable way.

If you just have a purchase bug and want to treat yourself to something new or buy new gear, that's not a problem and totally fine, just understand what you're getting yourself into and that it won't completely change your sound (most times, it won't change anything sonically unless there was a bottleneck somewhere) and oftentimes it just provides new options or conveniences. Do you use or need the mic/line inputs on your interface at all, or are you just using it as a DAC for now? Do you have a budget? If your audient is adequately driving your headphones (after they are EQ'd), I would say there is no need to upgrade. If you needed to power hard-to-drive headphones, you could potentially add a headphone amp to your audient or replace the audient with a dac-amp/all-in-one unit.

 

[jae]

The biggest issues with the Audient ID14 is that is it not quite linear throughout the FR so you are maybe down -1dB at 20hz and at around 16hz. 99.9% of people will probably not notice this, but it is not technically "perfect". But another issue on top of this that the output impedance of the headphone out is high at over 22 ohms. So if you are powering low/mid impedance headphones on it, you may encounter further problems with a non-linear frequency response. The DAC in this situation is the least of your potential worries if you care about fidelity and proper reproduction through a variety of current/future headphones

 

[m3nthal]

I'm going to address this very bluntly. What "warm" or "analogue" response from R2R dacs you have heard "folks" claim is of course, utter nonsense and fantasy. So, if you are making your purchase decision based on the hopes of imparting whatever this sonic quality is into your audio, or wanting to impart whatever qualities you're heard people talk about on reviews you have seen online, you should save your money because it will at most give you a placebo effect and a lighter wallet. I would not trust anyone telling you otherwise, because they are simply wrong.

Foremost, thank you for your reply. I will take a few steps back in my decision process to explain how I've ended here.
It all started with headphones. I have good closed back headphones DT 770 Pro, and good open back 560S, and wanted to try how planar headphones sound. As I don't have any audio shops around in my area, I could only rely on reviews. After a couple of weeks of searching, I've ended up with Hifiman Edition XS which I plugged to Audient iD14 MK1. The sound was different from what I had before with dynamic headphones, for sure. I tried plugging them to MacBook Pro, and they sounded punchier, but more fatiguing. Sound Blaster E5 happened to be lying around, so I plugged them in. Between iD14, MacBook Pro and E5, I found E5 to sound less fatiguing and pleasant.

In Audient iD14 defense, I've been using DT 770 Pro and 560S without any audio fatigue. I could listen for hours without noticing the headphones, until I got the XS.

I came across Audient ID14 review from Julian Kraus where he said that iD14 has high output impedance (22.9 Ohm) that will affect sound performance of low impedance headphones, and it happens that XS has 18 Ohm impedance. To compare, DT 770 Pro have 300 Ohm and 560S 120 - 120 Ohm. Also, Julian recommends 80+ Ohm headphones for best performance. Additionally, to compare, E5 has 2.2 Ohm impedance.

I searched on the forums, and people recommend having 10x ratio between output impedance of an amp and impedance of the load.

Hifiman Edition XS has this impedance ratio of ~0.78x with iD14, and ~10.40x with E5. So this might explain why XS sounded dull and fatiguing on id14, and more enjoyable on E5. So this made me conclude that I need to find a different audio interface or all-in-one DAC/AMP to better drive the XS.

Random facts:

• Audient iD14 claims "THD+N @ -1dBFS: 0.0009%"
• Sound Blaster E5 claims "(THD+N) of <0.005%"

The DAC hunt began. Long story short, I've narrowed it down based on reviews and measures on this forum to Topping DX5, SMSL M500 MKⅡ and Sabaj a20d 2022. All have pretty similar measurements and features, so it came down to looks and UX for me. I found a20d to look best, and have better UX than the rest, so I had it ordered.

While waiting for it to arrive, I got curious what other DAC exist and went to R2R rabbit hole of analog warmth. And I started to doubt by a20d order, and thinking if maybe I should invest more in R2R DAC... Will see how things with a20d go when I get it.

If you truly want a "warmer" response, I would suggest looking into experimenting with DSP/EQing your headphones and/or speakers to find a curve that subjectively works better for your taste, starting at some standard like neutral/harman target as a baseline and then proceeding from there. If you cannot improve your sound or at least get the desired effect with EQ or room correction, a R2R dac would definitely not be able to accomplish what you what, even if if did change the sound in some appreciable way.

Any tips on how to EQ for example Deezer or Spotify?

If you just have a purchase bug and want to treat yourself to something new or buy new gear, that's not a problem and totally fine, just understand what you're getting yourself into and that it won't completely change your sound (most times, it won't change anything sonically unless there was a bottleneck somewhere) and oftentimes it just provides new options or conveniences. Do you use or need the mic/line inputs on your interface at all, or are you just using it as a DAC for now? Do you have a budget? If your audient is adequately driving your headphones (after they are EQ'd), I would say there is no need to upgrade. If you needed to power hard-to-drive headphones, you could potentially add a headphone amp to your audient or replace the audient with a dac-amp/all-in-one unit.

I do have a microphone plugged in via XLR to iD14.
There is stricty budget, maybe under 1000USD for the whole system.
I could see two logical paths - iD14 MK2, which has lower output impedance and improved hardware overall, and all-in-one DACs such as Sabaj a20d 2022 which I am waiting to receive.
Regarding R2R, I am evaluating how it could fit instead of audio interface/all-in-one DAC to see it even makes sense.

Again, thank you for your reply.

 

[m3nthal]

The biggest issues with the Audient ID14 is that is it not quite linear throughout the FR so you are maybe down -1dB at 20hz and at around 16hz. 99.9% of people will probably not notice this, but it is not technically "perfect". But another issue on top of this that the output impedance of the headphone out is high at over 22 ohms. So if you are powering low/mid impedance headphones on it, you may encounter further problems with a non-linear frequency response. The DAC in this situation is the least of your potential worries if you care about fidelity and proper reproduction through a variety of current/future headphones

You beat me to it about the output impedance. Yes, I think the high output impedance of iD14 actually matters in my case with Hifiman Edition XS as those have almost the same impedance.

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Any tips on how to EQ for example Deezer or Spotify?

If you're looking to buy a new DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC has built in PEQ capabilities, a high-quality headphone output, and near-perfect measurements for $999.

 

[SoundGuy]

I would recommend to add a tube preamp for some warmth or “analog sound”. Roll tubes until you get it just right to your taste. Active speakers do require a preamp. Many preamps built into DACs are not of as high quality as most dedicated preamps. Mcintosh tube preamps have a lovely sound. Recent models are very tasteful with the right tubes. They can go from lean and SS sounding with high quality telefunken tubes to exceedingly warm and analog with Mullard and of course everything in between….

 

[SoundGuy]

If you're looking to buy a new DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC has built in PEQ capabilities, a high-quality headphone output, and near-perfect measurements for $999.

Yes the pro version has even better S/N due to professional signal level XLR outputs.

 

[Purité Audio]

The ADI Dac 2 has XLR outs.
Keith

 

[SoundGuy]

You beat me to it about the output impedance. Yes, I think the high output impedance of iD14 actually matters in my case with Hifiman Edition XS as those have almost the same impedance.

You need a preamp

 

[KeithPhantom]

If you're looking to buy a new DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC has built in PEQ capabilities, a high-quality headphone output, and near-perfect measurements for $999.

Also, consider that the RME only has 5 individual PEQ filters (7 if using the including the low- and high-shelf). With some headphones, you may need 10, and this is the reason that is holding me back from buying one.

 

[m3nthal]

View attachment 224914
View attachment 224919

The biggest issues with the Audient ID14 is that is it not quite linear throughout the FR so you are maybe down -1dB at 20hz and at around 16hz. 99.9% of people will probably not notice this, but it is not technically "perfect". But another issue on top of this that the output impedance of the headphone out is high at over 22 ohms. So if you are powering low/mid impedance headphones on it, you may encounter further problems with a non-linear frequency response. The DAC in this situation is the least of your potential worries if you care about fidelity and proper reproduction through a variety of current/future headphones

I've just noticed, that on your screenshot, this is actually mic input frequency response. Output frequency response for HP is much better:

 

[m3nthal]

If you're looking to buy a new DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC has built in PEQ capabilities, a high-quality headphone output, and near-perfect measurements for $999.

The ADI Dac 2 has XLR outs.

Also, consider that the RME

Wow, ADI Dac 2 has 3 recommendations already! Thank you!

I would recommend to add a tube preamp for some warmth or “analog sound”. Roll tubes until you get it just right to your taste. Active speakers do require a preamp. Many preamps built into DACs are not of as high quality as most dedicated preamps. Mcintosh tube preamps have a lovely sound. Recent models are very tasteful with the right tubes. They can go from lean and SS sounding with high quality telefunken tubes to exceedingly warm and analog with Mullard and of course everything in between….

Thank you, will check those out!

 

[majingotan]

While waiting for it to arrive, I got curious what other DAC exist and went to R2R rabbit hole of analog warmth. And I started to doubt by a20d order, and thinking if maybe I should invest more in R2R DAC... Will see how things with a20d go when I get it.

As an owner of a NOS R2R DAC, I chose it for novelty, aka as a toy DAC rather than sonics and like what has been said here, recent DACs have NEVER been the bottleneck for sound playback

 

[Omar Cumming]

R2R DACs have become one of the audio fads for true believers just like tubes,vinyl, cables etc, without science to back them up. DACs should be transparent without any "sound signature".

Cheers

 

[Prana Ferox]

'Warmth' is another way of saying a low-mids boost and somewhat rolled off highs. You can EQ that in if you really wanted to. 'Analog warmth' is nonsense, something stolen from the 'tubes vs transistors' debate where tubes clearly had to sound 'warm' because they visibly glow with heat. I have a lot of R2R DACs (because I have a lot of old CD players) and I have never heard an audible difference between them or my D-S units, which is good, because it would mean they'd be broken.

 

[m3nthal]

R2R DACs have become one of the audio fads for true believers just like tubes,vinyl, cables etc, without science to back them up. DACs should be transparent without any "sound signature".

Cheers

I have similar observation. Some reviewers only have only R2R DACs, and most of them have tubes in their systems.
I personally enjoy the tube sound. My dad restored a tube radio receiver and oh boy it sounds tasty. He also build a tube amp himself being a radio engineer by education. The amp sounds very warm and soft. Probably measures terribly being a DYI amp, but is pleasant to listen. Never made me tired.
It might be due to even harmonics added by the tubes.

 

[SoundGuy]

The ADI Dac 2 has XLR outs.
Keith

Yes but the pro has higher voltage output

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Yes but the pro has higher voltage output

OP didn't say that he's running hard to drive planars. Plus the ADI Dac 2 is a fair bit cheaper.

 

[jae]

I've just noticed, that on your screenshot, this is actually mic input frequency response. Output frequency response for HP is much better:
View attachment 224966

Hmm my mistake, that's what I get for writing posts with no sleep. That being said, the output impedance issue on the head out is still very real. I second all the other suggestions for the RME ADI-2 DAC, it is a full featured device. There is also the ADI-2 Pro which is an all-in-one device with ADC/line in and digital out albeit double the price, however it does not have mic preamps so you would still need to use your audient for mic in. As others mentioned it only has 5 hardware peq bands but if you are using a PC as your source you can quite easily use equalizer apo/peace software for as much peq as you want.

Generally I will usually suggest sticking with either RME, Topping (EX5/DX5/the upcoming DX7pro), or Motu M2/M4 if you need mic-in. If it were me my choices would be:

- RME + keep mic interface for input only
- Topping AIO + keep mic interface for input only
- Swap interface for a Motu M4, buy topping amp in future if necessary depending on headphones (cheapest option although you wouldnt be getting much value in this since you already have a working interface)

I have similar observation. Some reviewers only have only R2R DACs, and most of them have tubes in their systems.
I personally enjoy the tube sound. My dad restored a tube radio receiver and oh boy it sounds tasty. He also build a tube amp himself being a radio engineer by education. The amp sounds very warm and soft. Probably measures terribly being a DYI amp, but is pleasant to listen. Never made me tired.
It might be due to even harmonics added by the tubes.

The downside is that it is always on and becomes a permanent part of your audio chain. If you didn't want to EQ, there are vst filters/dsp you could apply in your output from your PC if you wanted to emulate tubes/harmonic distortion, which you would actually be able to turn off and on depending on your mood. The topping D90LE has a hardware feature like this built in (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ve-and-transistor-effects-measurements.35165/) although it is very niche. While an R2R dac won't change your sound, tubes definitely can but understand it is at the expense of fidelity.