Entry-level R2R DAC Setup or Audient iD14 alternative for Hifiman Edition XS

[LTig]

I second the RME ADI2 DAC as an owner of the PRO version. A very versatile DAC/Amp combo with an incredible list of useful features. Get the manual from rme-audio.com and check them out.

I also second the advice to stay clear of R2R and tubes. If working properly they will not change the sound audibly, and a broken device is not transparent hence not considered hifi.

 

[m3nthal]

Generally I will usually suggest sticking with either RME, Topping (EX5/DX5/the upcoming DX7pro), or Motu M2/M4 if you need mic-in. If it were me my choices would be:

- RME + keep mic interface for input only
- Topping AIO + keep mic interface for input only
- Swap interface for a Motu M4, buy topping amp in future if necessary depending on headphones (cheapest option although you wouldnt be getting much value in this since you already have a working interface)

Thank you for such a detailed reply, much appreciated!
I initially wanted to order Topping DX5 with ES9068AS ("32bit Stereo Audiophile DAC/CODEC with MQA Rendering"), but came across Sabaj a20d 2022 which has a pro chip ES9038PRO ("Flagship SABRE 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC with 140dB DNR") and measures similar to DX5 (but without "ESS IMD Hump").
To me, a20d has better looks and UX. Should arrive soon.

If you didn't want to EQ, there are vst filters/dsp you could apply in your output from your PC if you wanted to emulate tubes/harmonic distortion, which you would actually be able to turn off and on depending on your mood.

Will try that.

While an R2R dac won't change your sound, tubes definitely can but understand it is at the expense of fidelity.

Kinda broke my dream. I was hopping R2R will be a game changer given all the praise that reviewers give to R2R that came out in recent years. Is it all marketing? Some of them measure pretty well...

 

[jae]

Thank you for such a detailed reply, much appreciated!
I initially wanted to order Topping DX5 with ES9068AS ("32bit Stereo Audiophile DAC/CODEC with MQA Rendering"), but came across Sabaj a20d 2022 which has a pro chip ES9038PRO ("Flagship SABRE 32-bit 8-Channel Audio DAC with 140dB DNR") and measures similar to DX5 (but without "ESS IMD Hump").
To me, a20d has better looks and UX. Should arrive soon.


Will try that.

Kinda broke my dream. I was hopping R2R will be a game changer given all the praise that reviewers give to R2R that came out in recent years. Is it all marketing? Some of them measure pretty well...

There's lots of factors- it's mostly a combination of ignorance, misunderstanding, people voicing subjective options (which is mostly how they felt at the time listening to a system, rather than any empirical evidence) and it getting out of control over years of people saying the same things over and over over decades of the hobby existing. Someone new to the hobby believes something an "expert" told them, follows the advice and "looks to hear" what they should be hearing and then its a spiral of confirmation biases. They have a good experience and then tell the next person that comes along the same thing. Eventually many unsubstantiated claims makes makes itself into marketing and so on.

I would not too caught up on the chip tier/model used between products. The better model chips technically have better specsheets but products are not using these chips in a vacuum, they need to be integrated into circuits and ultimately the end performance will be determined and tied to how well the overall product is designed and better chips can result in inferior performance or vice versa. Many of the best products are not using the "best" dac chips, but products with the "best" dac chips almost always invariably cost more to the end user because they cost the manufacturer more to source them and design around them. Instead, focus on things like if the amplifier stage has enough power to drive the headphones you use to adequate loudness, or if the product has features you want (enough inputs/outputs, good SINAD, input switching, bluetooth, yadda yadda). The audibility of stuff like the ESS hump has been discussed on here and also whether or not you should want/use MQA, which you can find other threads on.

Sabaj A20d seems like a decent choice, and if you like the looks and usability of it then its a fine purchase. Note that, despite having the "better chip" it has virtually identical SINAD/distortion to the DX5, and the DX5 also has more power, bluetooth etc. If you don't need or anticipate using that stuff, then you don't have to see those as positives/benefits of one over the other.

 

[SoundGuy]

While an R2R dac won't change your sound, tubes definitely can but understand it is at the expense of fidelity.

True. So if you go that path then choose your tube preamp carefully and roll tubes. That said - the harmonic distortion from tubes can actually improve the listener experience by making the sound richer such that details are more audible (at the expense of higher noise floor, less linearity and a warmer punchy but less detailed bass). A very popular pop/rock mastering engineer actually used tubes to sweeten things up which means many recordings have some tube sweetness to them already. Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith for example.

 

[roderickvd]

If you don’t want that dream broken then don’t come to ASR asking such questions. I mean that in a friendly way as myself I love R2R DACs and don’t see myself buying a d-s again. But this is not the forum where you will garner such support nor do I intend to fire up that discussion.

My two cents are on the Denafrips Ares II versus the Soekris — I used to own a DIY Soekris dam1121, and own an Ares II now. Both are oversampling designs and actually sound very close. The Soekris has the advantage that you can install custom filter packs and there are some great ones on diyAudio.

The Denafrips has two dedicated oscillators where the Soekris had a single programmable clock synthesizer. The latter is more prone to jitter, all other things being equal. Also, the PLL that tracks the incoming clock is not as stable as it could be — lots of posts about this on diyAudio but the designer does not think it is an issue.

The Denafrips is unbuffered out (high Z) and the Soekris buffers with an opamp.

The Denafrips uses a linear power supply, the Soekris an SMPS. The Denafrips some audio-grade caps, the Soekris I don’t think so.

The Musicians are Denafrips clones with some components changed. Ruling is still out on whether for the better or worse.

Audio GD has been shown to be poorly engineered both on this forum and on SBAF, with measurements not approaching what the company published. I have no experience with them, nor with the Schiit or HIFIMAN.

Choose your poison I can put in a warm recommendation for the Ares II.

 

[jae]

Denafrips Ares II is decent product for what it is, one thing I can say is that I love the chassis it looks great aesthetically. It on the edge of transparency for CD-quality 16/44 content so it definitely won't offend anyone sonically. My major gripe with it of course is the cost/value, you are paying for something that's simply just a DAC that does out outperform even $100-200 chinese dacs, yet for the same price you can also get a "better" dac and state of the art headphone/pre amplifier or even bluetooth streaming in the same box. There is no remote control for it. I don't even think there is any sort of digital volume on the unit. So it's mostly limited to be a something displayed and untouched in a traditional stereo/hi-fi display that you may have other means to control. If that's the case one might as well be using an apple dongle as a DAC plugged into their computer at that point. Also, not that it matters but apparently the NOS mode is broken/does not even function correctly, and while probably none of this would matter much to an end user, it begs the question if the designers know completely what they are doing, or how they would address this if it was common knowledge and people wanted their money back, why is was marketed like this in the first place, and so on. Also just at a quick glance on the Ares thread it seems there may be some other small niche issues people may have been encountering depending on the use case of the product, so that is always something to look out for if you purchase it.

I'm sure by now you're seeing why most people here lean to the more featureful/better engineered/better performing gear- yes in many cases you are not getting the heavy robust chassis, "hi-fi" aesthetics and appeal, but you are getting the better product in many regards and it is often cheaper. I would rather get burned on a widely available Topping product for the odd case of "poor chinese QC" and deal with it accordingly versus knowingly choosing a product that I would have to make compromises with every day, especially if it did not actually claim to do all the "stuff" it claimed to do, even subjectively. If you find a product that satisfies most of all of your requirements not only aesthetically and performance/feature/price wise, then you know it's probably a great product for you.

 

[roderickvd]

To clarify two points:

1. A special firmware was published with digital volume control (for USB audio).

2. NOS indeed is not NOS, but oversampling with linear interpolation and no filtering.

 

[m3nthal]

Denafrips Ares II is decent product for what it is, one thing I can say is that I love the chassis it looks great aesthetically.

If I were to choose an entry level R2R DAC, I would definitely go with Ares 2 because I think it is build with love and perfection. I appreciate the minimalism of features and components on the board, making it a pure DAC with the only thing in mind is D/A conversion. Being a software engineer myself, I stand firmly on one of Unix fundamental: "Do one thing and do it well". Denafraps seems to be focusing on one thing at a time per device and truly believe in R2R since they don't have any other types of DAC.
Also, I like the philosophy behind the Denafrips design.

So I was wondering how to fit something like Ares into my setup. Funny thing, nobody answered my main question in this thread "How to make R2R work in my setup if I want to switch between headphones and active speakers?". I still not sure if XLR switcher is a good idea, or which device can solve this.

apparently the NOS mode is broken/does not even function correctly

That is a big hit on the reputation of the Denafrips.

 

[m3nthal]

Choose your poison I can put in a warm recommendation for the Ares II.

Thank you for your reply.
I would go with Ares as well, but I don't know how to integrate it in my system. Should I use XLR switcher? Or some other device that will allow me to switch between headphones and active speakers.

 

[roderickvd]

You can use a switcher or depending on the input impedance of the amps, possibly a splitter.

As headamp I have and can recommend a Singxer SA-1. It should be able to power planers too though you might want to double-check that. I have an Amiron Home and T1.2 myself.

 

[m3nthal]

You can use a switcher or depending on the input impedance of the amps, possibly a splitter.

As headamp I have and can recommend a Singxer SA-1. It should be able to power planets too though you might want to double-check that. I have an Amiron Home and T1.2 myself.

Thank you, noted.

Off topic, I’ve returned my Edition XS because they were giving me constant headaches due to poor headband construction and weight.

Since I am happy with DT770Pro, I am looking at Amiron Home as an upgrade. Should be a nice step up.

 

[roderickvd]

Good stuff. Get a balanced cable with them if you do decide to get the SA-1. Sounds so much better on that amp!

 

[Snoopy]

If they actually fixed the static noise of the Hifiman EF400 it could be a nice toy amp/DAC or something for a second setup.
But mine had a mild transformer hum as well.
And they use Chinese capacitors etc...


For the price it's really alright if you absolutely have to get a R2R DAC with headphone amp.

But honestly I wouldn't bother with R2R, If it's not going to be something to play around with.

 

[jae]

I know this is not related to the gear, but I have a sneaking suspicion that taming under 400hz, particularly that 200 hz void will give you back a lot of the "warmness" you may think is lacking as well

Is it the 80 ohm 770? (not sure if there are multiple impedance versions etc..?) I can give you some EQs to try if you would like

 

[m3nthal]

Is it the 80 ohm 770? (not sure if there are multiple impedance versions etc..?) I can give you some EQs to try if you would like

It is 250Ohm, but the pads that I have are no longer stock as stock pads wore out a few years ago... So I am not sure that my current pads measure the same as stock anymore. There is no harm trying, so please share what EQ that you have in mind
The 200Hz dips looks unnatural, I haven't seen such dips in that range. Worth equalizing it for sure.
I also use Sennheiser HD 560S when there is a bit of silence around

 

[m3nthal]

But honestly I wouldn't bother with R2R, If it's not going to be something to play around with.

Looks like I've reached a reasonable limit of sound quality with Sabaj a20d 2022 which came a few days ago, so if I to try something different, it would be definitely an R2R DAC.

 

[jae]

According to past measurements it seems the 200hz suck is present regardless of the pad wornness, although the subbass is higher with fresh pads. This is assuming the pads are fresh

Bass only:

Preamp: -3.3 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 37 Hz Gain -4.4 dB Q 0.600
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 56 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 2.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 87 Hz Gain 4.8 dB Q 2.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 110 Hz Gain -0.9 dB Q 2.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 120 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 0.500
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 130 Hz Gain -4.8 dB Q 1.800
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 150 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 2.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 220 Hz Gain 4.3 dB Q 1.600

Treble (can try this together with the bass, watch the preamp):

Preamp: -1.8 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 5000 Hz Gain 4.6 dB Q 0.700
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 6300 Hz Gain -11.0 dB Q 1.900

AutoEQ:

Preamp: -5.9 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 28 Hz Gain -4.8 dB Q 0.92
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 51 Hz Gain -3.8 dB Q 1.71
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 136 Hz Gain -4.6 dB Q 3.50
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 213 Hz Gain 3.8 dB Q 2.52
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 20240 Hz Gain -7.8 dB Q 0.19
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 95 Hz Gain 3.3 dB Q 4.71
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 98 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.90
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 980 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 5.22
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 3638 Hz Gain 6.4 dB Q 3.74
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 6277 Hz Gain -3.5 dB Q 2.25

 

[Snoopy]

Looks like I've reached a reasonable limit of sound quality with Sabaj a20d 2022 which came a few days ago, so if I to try something different, it would be definitely an R2R DAC.

I would try EQ settings, pad swapping, Different masters, better headphones.

 

[m3nthal]

According to past measurements it seems the 200hz suck is present regardless of the pad wornness, although the subbass is higher with fresh pads. This is assuming the pads are fresh

Bass only:



Treble (can try this together with the bass, watch the preamp):



AutoEQ:

Which program are these snippets for?

 

[jae]

Windows?

Install https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo then restart PC

Then install this https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/

Then you can import them as .txt files using the "import" button on the interface and tweak easily/swap between profiles