Dr Olive is not happy with how Dolby Atmos is mixed

[abdo123]

Wait.... even the .4 (height channel) is considered a bed channel in context of object based VS channel based?

If someone has some good reading on this, I'd love a link.

there is an interview on audiohlolics for two hours with a very high end Atmos mixer for movies. check it out

 

[abdo123]

It seems like a bad concept form the get go.

Also not at all, it is what makes Atmos backward compatible with things even from the early 2000s

 

[Waxx]

While Multichannel immersive systems like Dolby Atmos are good in theory, i never heared one that sounds real to me, also because of the very narrow sweetspot. Movie theaters today, especially those with Dolby Atmost sound terrible to me, so i wait for the dvd/streaming to become availeble so i can see it with my stereo setup. It just sounds better to me like that, and i actually can enjoy the movie in stead of being annoyed all the time by the terrible sound in the theatre. I totally understand what Dr. Olive means here.

 

[abdo123]

While Multichannel immersive systems like Dolby Atmos are good in theory, i never heared one that sounds real to me, also because of the very narrow sweetspot. Movie theaters today, especially those with Dolby Atmost sound terrible to me, so i wait for the dvd/streaming to become availeble so i can see it with my stereo setup. It just sounds better to me like that, and i actually can enjoy the movie in stead of being annoyed all the time by the terrible sound in the theatre. I totally understand what Dr. Olive means here.

All the IMAX cinemas i have been to have been great, check if a one is nearby maybe?

 

[Waxx]

All the IMAX cinemas i have been to have been great, check if a one is nearby maybe?

I did (Kinepolis in Gent & Brussel, Belgium), but no, it's not better than my very modest home system, it's way to loud and sounds awfull.

 

[abdo123]

I did (Kinepolis in Gent & Brussel, Belgium), but no, it's not better than my very modest home system, it's way to loud and sounds awfull.

I live like half a kilometre away from the one in Brussels, it was pretty good sitting in the golden seat(s).

I understand the loudness complains though, I usually only go there a few times a year.

The bass is way better than anyone can achieve in a small apartment or the typical spaces we live in.

 

[DVDdoug]

(I only have 5.1.)

This is WEIRD!!! Maybe most listeners like a "wide" main vocal... Even in the "sweet spot" I don't perceive the phantom center as precisely as center-channel movie dialog. I'm pretty sure that's the case with most listeners or there would be no need for a center speaker.

And of course the normal mixdown will create a phantom center if you have a 2-channel stereo system (or if you are otherwise configured for no-center).

While Multichannel immersive systems like Dolby Atmos are good in theory, i never heared one that sounds real to me,

Most recordings aren't intended to sound "real". Except perhaps for some classical recordings where they are trying to reproduce the sound of in a concert hall.

 

[Philbo King]

In my experience (about 50 years) the artist sings/plays his music and that's where his job ends. I have never encountered any musician who 'intends' that his signal to be heard in any particular way by the audience. That is the job of the FOH (front of house) mix engineer. And that is why every live venue (with rare exceptions) uses mono PAs, which most assuredly has a phantom center.

Movies ARE different. All of them are surround now. But there is often a teenager paid minimum wage operating the equipment.

If you really want an immersive audio experience the only place you are likely to get it is in your listening room.

 

[Newman]

While Multichannel immersive systems like Dolby Atmos are good in theory, i never heared one that sounds real to me, also because of the very narrow sweetspot. Movie theaters today, especially those with Dolby Atmos sound terrible to me, so i wait for the dvd/streaming to become availeble so i can see it with my stereo setup. It just sounds better to me like that, and i actually can enjoy the movie in stead of being annoyed all the time by the terrible sound in the theatre. I totally understand what Dr. Olive means here.

Actually you totally misunderstand what Dr. Olive means here.

He means “I appreciate the stable localization, low coloration, better intelligibility, and freedom to move out of the sweet spot.” - of MCH mixes over the stereo you say always sounds better to you.

As long as they use the centre channel.

He is specifically complaining about record labels seemingly mandating the use of phantom centre channel for Atmos mixes of music. Unlike you, who thinks stereo sounds the most real, he thinks mixing to stereo is “archaic” and is destroying his appreciation of the sound. This is the very reason he went to post on the matter.

Unlike you, he has been enjoying MCH program material for many years for how much better it sounds than stereo.

It just needs to be well done. Just like good stereo needs to be well done.

cheers

 

[iGude]

I can confirm that the center speaker is hardly used in music recordings. Some years ago I tested the center channel of many Jazz and classical music SACD: virtually all of them had nothing or only meaningless content on the center channel (e.g. a single percussion instrument every second).
It depends on the mixing engineer’s attitude.
From what I know, some mixing engineers fear that too poor and wrongly installed center speakers may ruin the overall result.
But there are other examples, e.g. from 2L and IAN records and others.

BTW: 23 years ago many well known recording and mixing engineers wanted a special multichannel format for music only. They suggested to use the six discrete channels for additional wide or height speakers, i.e. without center and LFE. One such format was even established with the 2+2+2 format by label MDG.
Those engineer’s argument was that music lovers who care for multichannel classical and Jazz recordings will have a proper sound system and sit in the sweet spot for listening, i.e. they have a proper phantom center…

 

[valerianf]

@iGude There is an easy way to guet some sound going out from the center channel.
From a stereo input signal, an AVR will use its DSP to generate a 5.0 channel.
In my case I am using Amazon music HD in DD+ and Dolby pro-logic II with center wide on an old AVR.
The result is far better than stereo.

Next step would be to find a newer AVR able to do the same from a stereo 24/96 input signal.
Did somebody succeed to find a DSP that is able to get Dolby Surround or DTS upsampler working with such an input?

 

[raif71]

To make the doctor happy, perhaps offer an olive branch

 

[iGude]

@iGude There is an easy way to guet some sound going out from the center channel.
From a stereo input signal, an AVR will use its DSP to generate a 5.0 channel.
In my case I am using Amazon music HD in DD+ and Dolby pro-logic II with center wide on an old AVR.
The result is far better than stereo.

Next step would be to find a newer AVR able to do the same from a stereo 24/96 input signal.
Did somebody succeed to find a DSP that is able to get Dolby Surround or DTS upsampler working with such an input?

I’m using an old Lexicon MC-1 for DPLII. The results depend on the content, but I agree with you that it can be quite good.
Concerning 24/96: I don’t know for sure but I would bet that all AVR reduce the sample rate to say 48 kHz internally, no matter of the input signal. Doing DSP with flexible sampling rate natively is whole different ballgame..

 

[CtheArgie]

I live like half a kilometre away from the one in Brussels, it was pretty good sitting in the golden seat(s).

I understand the loudness complains though, I usually only go there a few times a year.

The bass is way better than anyone can achieve in a small apartment or the typical spaces we live in.

Oh no! Don’t say that!
We are looking to move to Uccle or Ixelles area. I’m taking my Neumann’s 310s and 2 750s. Will our neighbors hate us?

 

[Waxx]

Oh no! Don’t say that!
We are looking to move to Uccle or Ixelles area. I’m taking my Neumann’s 310s and 2 750s. Will our neighbors hate us?

Depends on how much they hear you. But those are very high price/high class area's so you probally won't live in a cheap appartment with cardboard walls or so. More like a big freestanding villa with a garden, or at least a high end appartment with solid walls and decent acoustic isolation.

 

[abdo123]

Oh no! Don’t say that!
We are looking to move to Uccle or Ixelles area. I’m taking my Neumann’s 310s and 2 750s. Will our neighbors hate us?

If you invite me over for a beer i will convince them not to

My apartment is in the corner of the building and there is very decent insulation.

I would not think too much about it until it happens.

 

[kemmler3D]

This is kinda funny, record labels always seem firmly committed to things that stopped working 10 years ago.

I kept trying to think through why this would be a difficult mixing question. Every issue I can think of is probably actually not an issue unless you're doing some really wacky stuff with reverb. Downmixing a center channel vocal+reverb shouldn't do anything bad to the mix that I can think of.

 

[krabapple]

The theatre would have a discrete centre, but the content being played isn't using it, because the mixer mixed to a phantom centre.

Dr Olive posted similar content on FB:-

link please

 

[krabapple]

Is Atmos a real progress when discrete speakers are used (i.e. 5.1) at the specified placement?

Well, yes, if more than 5 speakers are used. If the setup is only 5.1, you get....5.1 sound. Full ATMOS can do 128 channels routed to 64 speakers. At home, AIUI, the 'full' implementation is 8 to 10 channels. They add audio in the vertical dimension which 5.1 can't do, and side surround.

the bit-rate for the objects is horrendously low, which is a huge deterrent to what you can do with them in music.

You would be surprised (though Drs. Toole and Olive wouldn't) how adding more output channels masks things like 'horrendous' bit rate effects.

 

[krabapple]

lol. Imagine the centre channel not being used for dialogue for TVs and movies

Like Newman noted, this was a demo of an Atmos *music* mix.

There has sometimes been pushback from artists who are appalled that their vocal performance can be easily isolated..and unfairly judged..when it's mixed to a single (usually center) channel. Maybe that was on the mixers' mind.