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Does anyone else like FM?

Yes, extended hybrid HD Radio does reduce the analog FM bandwidth compared to regular hybrid mode, as it allocates more of the available spectrum to the digital signal, effectively limiting the analog portion to a narrower bandwidth; typically, this means the analog signal in extended hybrid mode is restricted to around ±100 kHz compared to the wider ±130 kHz in regular
hybrid mode
From Wikipedia but also read similar on HD Radio's website. Now I dislike HD Radio if it's extended hybrid potentially reducing my analog FM sound quality. Then I read HD Radio can cause self noise on the analog when FM tuner demodulates, although maybe some newer FM tuners have filtering. Then I see HD radio might lower the station's power on analog FM by about 10% causing weaker reception. I hate HD Radio now :mad::D.
 
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Then I read HD Radio can cause self noise on the analog when FM tuner demodulates, although maybe some newer FM tuners have filtering.
Since you mentioned the can of worms, I pulled out my handy can opener and fell into this rabbit hole:
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdrsn.htm
Might end up ordering some paaahts !
 
Since you mentioned the can of worms, I pulled out my handy can opener and fell into this rabbit hole:
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdrsn.htm
Might end up ordering some paaahts !
Interesting reading. I don't know but wonder how common it is stations are using extended hybrid, and if my trusty old receiver has filtering for the self noise,, and what effect both have on analog FM sound quality or if any of it is audible, but none of it helps. I feel like I sometimes hear more faint noise on my FM stations than I use to before HD.

Mono The easiest way to eliminate HD Radio self-noise is to hit the mono button. The noise corrupts only the stereo subchannel. If you don't use it, no noise will appear.
I'm going to try that and see if I can hear self noise.
 
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If worldradiomap.com is correct only a few of the FM channels in my area are broadcasting HD R . Of my 8 channel presets only 2, 93.3 and 101.7, look to be broadcasting HD R. I don't listen to 93.3 that much, but like the programming on 101.7 and listen to it a good bit, but if it's only 2 really only 1 channel, I guess it's not a big deal.

Ironically 101.7 is farther away and has a weak signal and most of the time tunes in mono. I was thinking of connecting a better antenna to my tuner but maybe I'd be better off keeping that channel's reception in mono and avoiding HD R self noise lol :p .
 
if my trusty old receiver has filtering for the self noise

I'm going to try that and see if I can hear self noise.
The Article by Brian Beezley (http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/index.html or http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdrsn.htm) has a list of tuners that have an effective circuit already in them (there may be others):
Tuner The last solution is simply to buy another tuner. Few home tuners are marketed these days, but high-quality used tuners are readily available.

Receiving an HD Radio signal in stereo at full IF bandwidth without self-noise requires a postdetection filter or special stereo decoder. The U.S. version of each tuner listed below has one or the other, or both. Before buying a tuner, check with someone who owns one to verify the effectiveness of its self-noise rejection. Surely the list is incomplete.

Postdetection Filter
ADS T2
Aiwa AT-9700
Akai AT-93 AT-K03 AT-S55 AT-V04
AMC T7
Arcam Alpha 5 Plus Alpha 7 Alpha 8 T21 T51
Audiolab 8000T
Carver TX-11
DaySequerra FMR 25
Denon TU-600 TU-650RD TU-660 TU-680NAB TU-767 TU-800 TU-1500RD UTU-F10
Dynaco AF-6
Heathkit AJ-15
Hitachi FT-007 FT-3500 FT-4400 FT-5500MKII FT-8000
Kenwood 600T BASIC T2 KT-9XG KT-80 KT-615 KT-770 KT-880D KT-900 KT-917
KT-1000 KT-1100 KT-3050 KT-5020 KT-6040 KT-6050 L-01T L-02T L-07TII
Klein + Hummel FM 2002
KLH Eighteen
Luxman T-117 T-230 T-240 T-400 TX-101
Marantz 2130 ST-8 ST-17 ST551
McIntosh MR71 MR73 MR74 MR77 MR78
NAD 4155 4300
Onkyo T-35 T-407 T-450RDS T-909 T-4017 T-4057 T-4087 T-4150
T-4500 T-4700 T-4711 T-9060 T-9090 T-9090II T-G10
Phase Linear T 5200
Philips AH180 FT930
Pioneer F-9 F-X700 TX-05 TX-950 TX-8500II TX-9100
Quad FM3
Revox B160 B260 B260-S B261 B760 H6
Rotel RHT-10 RT-830A RT-850 RT-850A RT-870 RT-940AX
RT-950BX RT-955 RT-970BX RT-990BX RT-1080
Sansui TU-517 TU-717 TU-719 TU-919 TU-S5 TU-S9 TU-S55X TU-X1
Sony ST-J55 ST-J75 ST-S555ES
Sumo Charlie
TAG McLaren T32R
Technics ST-G7

Product Detector
Kenwood KT-990D KT-990SD KT-1100SD KT-3300D KT-7020 L-1000T
Rotel RHT-10 RT-990BX
Yamaha T-85 TX-1000 TX-2000

Harmonic Canceller
Denon TU-680NAB
NAD C420 C422 C425 C426
Onkyo T-405TX T-405X
Primare T21
Sansui TU-D99X TU-D99AMX TU-S77X TU-S77AMX

Digital Direct Decoder
Pioneer F-51 F-77 F-90 F-91 F-93 F-99X F-401 F-449 F-656 F-717

Digital Signal Processing
Accuphase T-1000 T-1100 T-1200
 
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The Article by Brian Beezley (http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/index.html or http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdrsn.htm) has a list of tuners that have an effective circuit already in them (there may be others):
Tuner The last solution is simply to buy another tuner. Few home tuners are marketed these days, but high-quality used tuners are readily available.

Receiving an HD Radio signal in stereo at full IF bandwidth without self-noise requires a postdetection filter or special stereo decoder. The U.S. version of each tuner listed below has one or the other, or both. Before buying a tuner, check with someone who owns one to verify the effectiveness of its self-noise rejection. Surely the list is incomplete.

Postdetection Filter
ADS T2
Aiwa AT-9700
Akai AT-93 AT-K03 AT-S55 AT-V04
AMC T7
Arcam Alpha 5 Plus Alpha 7 Alpha 8 T21 T51
Audiolab 8000T
Carver TX-11
DaySequerra FMR 25
Denon TU-600 TU-650RD TU-660 TU-680NAB TU-767 TU-800 TU-1500RD UTU-F10
Dynaco AF-6
Heathkit AJ-15
Hitachi FT-007 FT-3500 FT-4400 FT-5500MKII FT-8000
Kenwood 600T BASIC T2 KT-9XG KT-80 KT-615 KT-770 KT-880D KT-900 KT-917
KT-1000 KT-1100 KT-3050 KT-5020 KT-6040 KT-6050 L-01T L-02T L-07TII
Klein + Hummel FM 2002
KLH Eighteen
Luxman T-117 T-230 T-240 T-400 TX-101
Marantz 2130 ST-8 ST-17 ST551
McIntosh MR71 MR73 MR74 MR77 MR78
NAD 4155 4300
Onkyo T-35 T-407 T-450RDS T-909 T-4017 T-4057 T-4087 T-4150
T-4500 T-4700 T-4711 T-9060 T-9090 T-9090II T-G10
Phase Linear T 5200
Philips AH180 FT930
Pioneer F-9 F-X700 TX-05 TX-950 TX-8500II TX-9100
Quad FM3
Revox B160 B260 B260-S B261 B760 H6
Rotel RHT-10 RT-830A RT-850 RT-850A RT-870 RT-940AX
RT-950BX RT-955 RT-970BX RT-990BX RT-1080
Sansui TU-517 TU-717 TU-719 TU-919 TU-S5 TU-S9 TU-S55X TU-X1
Sony ST-J55 ST-J75 ST-S555ES
Sumo Charlie
TAG McLaren T32R
Technics ST-G7

Product Detector
Kenwood KT-990D KT-990SD KT-1100SD KT-3300D KT-7020 L-1000T
Rotel RHT-10 RT-990BX
Yamaha T-85 TX-1000 TX-2000

Harmonic Canceller
Denon TU-680NAB
NAD C420 C422 C425 C426
Onkyo T-405TX T-405X
Primare T21
Sansui TU-D99X TU-D99AMX TU-S77X TU-S77AMX

Digital Direct Decoder
Pioneer F-51 F-77 F-90 F-91 F-93 F-99X F-401 F-449 F-656 F-717

Digital Signal Processing
Accuphase T-1000 T-1100 T-1200
Yeah, I looked through that list and didn't see my receiver on it or any models of others I recognized. I was surprised Yamaha didn't have hardly any. I'm thinking only higher end separate tuners of the different brands have the filtering.

As far as I can tell not very many FM stations are broadcasting HD R, so hopefully the self-noise isn't much of a problem. Beng sort a circuit minimalist, I just leave not have the filter if I don't really need it. I'm not sure what the self-noise sounds like or how audible it is. I wished FM stations would just drop broadcasting HD R, it doesn't give any sound quality benefit or extra channels or both. HD R tuners aren't very common, and it's slight negative effects on analog FM HD R worth the trouble expense to broadcast i.t
 
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Yeah, I looked through that list and didn't see my receiver on it or any models of others I recognized. I was surprised Yamaha didn't have hardly any. I'm thinking only higher end separate tuners of the different brands have the filtering.

As far as I can tell not very many FM stations are broadcasting HD R, so hopefully the self-noise isn't much of a problem. Beng sort a circuit minimalist, I just leave not have the filter if I don't really need it. I'm not sure what the self-noise sounds like or how audible it is. I wished FM stations would just drop broadcasting HD R, it doesn't give any sound quality benefit or extra channels or both. HD R tuners aren't very common, and it's slight negative effects on analog FM HD R worth the trouble expense to broadcast i.t
I'm guessing (since you did not mention any particular Yamaha) that you want to see if a certain Yamaha has the circuit that stops the birdies.
This is a list of Yamaha's that positively do NOT have a circuit that fixes this issue (there may be others):
Yamaha CT-610 CT-1010 CT-7000 CT-V1 T-1 T-2 T-7 T-17 T-20 T-60 T-70 T-80 T-500 T-560 T-700 T-760
T-1000 T-1020 T-1060 T-S500BL TX-492 TX-500 TX-680RDS TX-900U TX-930 TX-950 TX-5000U
My tuner is a NAD Monitor Series Stereo Tuner 4300, which came from the factory with a post detection filter (many years before their was HD or (in Europe) DAB.
While the circuitry has not been changed, there have been some upgrades to the caps, resisters, etc.: for better materials, tighter tolerances & the like.
The audio circuits have also had the circuits "massaged" in the same manner: to make their output more linier (no circuits were altered), my normal policy is to leave the circuit design alone (as the engineers intended), just try to make it better than it ever was with better parts put into the circuit, making it the best that it can be, as originally designed.
 
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I'm guessing (since you did not mention any particular Yamaha) that you want to see if a certain Yamaha has the circuit that stops the birdies.
This is a list of Yamaha's that positively do NOT have a circuit that fixes this issue (there may be others):
Yamaha CT-610 CT-1010 CT-7000 CT-V1 T-1 T-2 T-7 T-17 T-20 T-60 T-70 T-80 T-500 T-560 T-700 T-760
T-1000 T-1020 T-1060 T-S500BL TX-492 TX-500 TX-680RDS TX-900U TX-930 TX-950 TX-5000U
My tuner is a NAD Monitor Series Stereo Tuner 4300, which came from the factory with a post detection filter (many years before their was HD or (in Europe) DAB.
While the circuitry has not been changed, there have been some upgrades to the caps, resisters, etc.: for better materials, tighter tolerances & the like.
The audio circuits have also had the circuits "massaged" in the same manner: to make their output more linier (no circuits were altered), my normal policy is to leave the circuit design alone (as the engineers intended), just try to make it better than it ever was with better parts put into the circuit, making it the best that it can be, as originally designed.
I wanted to see if any receivers with integrated tuners had filtering for this self-noise. I'm not sure but it appears filtering circuitry is only provided in higher end separate component tuners. It seems that even in higher end integrated receivers such s from Yamaha and others, the integrated tuner is still a basic level tuner.

I emailed FM 101.7 last night to verify if they still broadcast HD R, and if so, is it extended hybrid. I already got a reply from one of the DJs whose name I recognized. She confirmed they do broadcast HD R their sister country station on HD2. She didn't address extended vs regular hybrid, and said 101.7 is broadcasted in all digital lol. Since there's only 2 HD R subchannels I'm thinking it's not extended hybrid, so it basically answered my questions.
 
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...
I emailed FM 101.7 last night to verify if they still broadcast HD R, and if so, is it extended hybrid. I already got a reply from one of the DJs whose name I recognized. She confirmed they do broadcast HD R their sister country station on HD2. She didn't address extended vs regular hybrid, and said 101.7 is broadcasted in all digital lol. Since there's only 2 HD R subchannels I'm thinking it's not extended hybrid, so it basically answered my questions.
Isn't the HD Radio station list kept reasonably current?
 
Isn't the HD Radio station list kept reasonably current?
I guess it is, but when you go to each station's website they don't always make it clear that they are broadcasting HD R also. If that HD R station list is up to date, then it appears I have 3 of my 8 channel presets with HD R :(.
 
Just a reminder that for very little money, you can set yourself up with a Software Defined Radio and see for yourself what your local broadcasters are doing with their sidebands, and whether you might benefit from filtering the digital data out. The hardware component is very general purpose, as such devices were originally designed as digital television tuner dongles, until someone figured out that they were actually far more versatile, and AM/FM/Ham/SW/VHF are all possible, and so are digital formats including DAB+ and HD Radio, though you'll need additional (free) decoder software for the latter two.
 
Does anyone else think FM sounds better than free digital streaming music with its below 160 kbps bit rate and even some paid sources like SiriusXM? I wish often times for a little higher fidelity than FM, but I don't believe I can get that with streaming without paying for a high than the free bit rate (not to mention procuring a networking receiver or a streamer). Maybe I shouldn't make that conclusion because I still don't have wifi streaming to my Hifi, but every time I listen to system using free streaming music I think the FM sounds better.

FM is free, you don't even need internet and a streamer and DAC. IMO FM tuning just works better for the user than streaming with its simplicity and quick access. When I'm listen to music I don't want to fiddle with my phone and apps. And most of the time, I like having a DJ curated playlist that just keeps the music rolling. I'm sure there are many free curated streaming music sources, but a lot of them aren't, I feel that FM broadcasting's potential especially digital was sort of neglected in the move toward streaming. Anyway, I'm interested in anyone's view on FM and even ones that might convince me digital music streaming is a better choice (it took me a long time to finally switch from traditional cable tv to streaming but I did it, so there's always hope I can do similar with audio lol).
I'm very fortunate to have a couple of excellent commercial-free stations in northeast Iowa.
KCCK - jazz and blues 24/7
KUNI - More of a standard public radio station, but has an excellent blues show 10pm-midnight every Sunday.
Both are hi-def digital audio, and both are streamable over the web.
 
Streaming is my new "radio" & I'm certainly not alone.
Only in the car do I listen to one of my local Public Radio stations b/c their content is so great. Classic programming all day long and serious jazz after dark, all night long. WBLV Radio
Peace
 
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I wanted to see if any receivers with integrated tuners had filtering for this self-noise. I'm not sure but it appears filtering circuitry is only provided in higher end separate component tuners. It seems that even in higher end integrated receivers such s from Yamaha and others, the integrated tuner is still a basic level tuner.

I emailed FM 101.7 last night to verify if they still broadcast HD R, and if so, is it extended hybrid. I already got a reply from one of the DJs whose name I recognized. She confirmed they do broadcast HD R their sister country station on HD2. She didn't address extended vs regular hybrid, and said 101.7 is broadcasted in all digital lol. Since there's only 2 HD R subchannels I'm thinking it's not extended hybrid, so it basically answered my questions.
In some lines of gear, the same tuner that was by itself, also may have been used in a receiver. But in may not have been a tuner from the top of the line.
This is something that folks who are fans of the receivers will need to sus out.
 
I notice, with puzzlement, that the Yamaha CT-800 is not on either list above. Anyone know its filtration status? :)
The CT-800 is a generally pretty nice tuner, I might add.
My CT-800 (bottom left in the Yamaha quad shown below) is a little scroungy, but I am still happy to have it.

1737315557128.jpeg
 
I notice, with puzzlement, that the Yamaha CT-800 is not on either list above. Anyone know its filtration status? :)
The CT-800 is a generally pretty nice tuner, I might add.
My CT-800 (bottom left in the Yamaha quad shown below) is a little scroungy, but I am still happy to have it.

View attachment 422412
The list seems incomplete and seems no receivers on it either. When that vintage Yamaha tuner was made, FM wasn't digitally corrupted :D so I wouldn't' be surprised if it doesn't have the filtering. I haven't really checked if any other pre HD R era tuners have filtering though.
 
My problem with FM is the advertisements and mindless talkback "personalities". It's unlistenable in this country because of that, and I have some lovely tuners too, so a pity.
I've enjoyed community radio stations in Sydney and Melbourne
 
FWIW, I have generally found good "vintage" tuners (and there are examples here dating back to the early 1950s) to handle "IBOC hybrid digital" radio with reasonable aplomb. In full disclosure, though, the oldest, of course, are FM mono, albeit MPX compatible in almost all cases (i.e., with detector output jacks for an outboard converter). The US FCC was all about backwards-compatibility in those long-ago times. ;) I do have a couple of outboard MPX converters here, but don't have much experience listening with them, nor do I have adequate gumption to (attempt to) align them! ;)
FM mono outperforms MPX FM stereo in every measurable aspect (except, of course, channel separation! :cool:), anyway.

EDIT: Two other thoughts.
Thought the first: Yes, @Mark1 that list is extremely incomplete. ;) That said, for massmarket 1970s brands, the tuner sections of receivers were often (tho' not always) essentially identical to one of the standalone tuner models -- or more likely vice versa. The only trick is to know which receiver's radio guts match which tuner's entrails -- places like audiokarma or fmtunerinfo are good places to look for at least anecdotal information.

Thought the second: I do need to clearly disclose that., although there are an embarrassing number of (standalone) FM tuners here, none is of the high-end/reference caliber of, say the Day-Sequerra, marantz 10B, Fisher FM-1000, REL Precedent. McIntosh MR-78, HH Scott 4310, or whichever ones I am forgetting. ;)
There are some pretty good ones, though.
 
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The list seems incomplete and seems no receivers on it either. When that vintage Yamaha tuner was made, FM wasn't digitally corrupted :D so I wouldn't' be surprised if it doesn't have the filtering. I haven't really checked if any other pre HD R era tuners have filtering though.
A. The list states that it is about tuners (and said nothing about receivers [some people do "stay in their lane" and write about what they know about]).
B. "Surely the list is incomplete." is stated in the text.
As to tuners (what I know something about about [but very little compared to Mr. Beezley]).
I know that one of my tuners (the one I use the most) the NAD Monitor Series Stereo Tuner that has the filtering (as did many) and was built (1986-19890 well before HD & DAB created this problem, as they did not yet exist.
The filtering is/was simply a "best practices" effort to eliminate all interference & unwanted signal alterations.
Mine has been modified to be more sensitive to be able to get weaker (or further away) stations more clearly & the audio output has been modified to be more linier.
Here are the original specifications (I just noticed that it's in German [I grew up speaking & reading both English & German, so my switching between the two is instant & I don't usually notice it at all]), so you may need to use a translator of some type.

NAD 4300​

General
  • Manufacturer: NAD
  • Model: 4300
  • Type: Tuner
  • Years of manufacture: 1986 - 1989
  • Made in: Japan
  • Color: Black
  • Original price approx.: 1'000 DM, 1987

Technical data
NAD 4300-Daten-1988.jpg
 
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