Does anyone else like FM?

[Mark1]

FWIW, I have generally found good "vintage" tuners (and there are examples here dating back to the early 1950s) to handle "IBOC hybrid digital" radio with reasonable aplomb. In full disclosure, though, the oldest, of course, are FM mono, albeit MPX compatible in almost all cases (i.e., with detector output jacks for an outboard converter). The US FCC was all about backwards-compatibility in those long-ago times. I do have a couple of outboard MPX converters here, but don't have much experience listening with them, nor do I have adequate gumption to (attempt to) align them!
FM mono outperforms MPX FM stereo in every measurable aspect (except, of course, channel separation! ), anyway.

EDIT: Two other thoughts.
Thought the first: Yes, @Mark1 that list is extremely incomplete. That said, for massmarket 1970s brands, the tuner sections of receivers were often (tho' not always) essentially identical to one of the standalone tuner models -- or more likely vice versa. The only trick is to know which receiver's radio guts match which tuner's entrails -- places like audiokarma or fmtunerinfo are good places to look for at least anecdotal information.

Thought the second: I do need to clearly disclose that., although there are an embarrassing number of (standalone) FM tuners here, none is of the high-end/reference caliber of, say the Day-Sequerra, marantz 10B, Fisher FM-1000, REL Precedent. McIntosh MR-78, HH Scott 4310, or whichever ones I am forgetting.
There are some pretty good ones, though.

I'm not question mono FM outperforms stereo especially with reception and eliminating interference, but I notice when I toggle my tuner between mono and stereo. Stereo sounds a little louder and brighter with more treble, and wasn';t sure why. Although I think mono sounds a little cleaner.

What originally got me looking more into HDR's effect on analog FM, and also related to stereo vs mono you and the self-noise link mention, was this short debate between two supposed experienced broadcasting engineers https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=424945 . At first I thought the 1st engineer was wrong and the rather snarky 2nd was right. Turns out the first engineer was more correct.

Agree the list is incomplete even for component tuners let alone integrated tuners. And I see no reason a tuner list should only mean literally component tuners and not tuners integrated into preamps and receivers when they are often the same tuner. I don't know which tuners have the filtering in the first place or which tuners are in which integrated components. That's why I need a complete list lol. That's why I think receivers are great bang for the buck, short of high-end components, often having essentially the same tuner, preamp amp and power amp already connected.

 

[wadude]

The local college station has fine classical programming. It’s generally what I listen to in the car and through the table radio in the kitchen. Exploring Music with Bill McGlaughlin is a great show.

 

[mhardy6647]

I cannot imagine that there'll ever be a comprehensive list -- although I'll readily acknowledge that there are lots of obsessive people on the internet, so I could be wrong about that!

Schematics are available for many of the vintage components -- www.hifiengine.com (speaking of obsessive ) is a darned good source of service documentation for a stunning array of hifi audio products old and new. Sams is still in business (for older components).

For the record, thanks to my father, I have a darned good collection of Sams schematics (back to Folder 11 and into the early 1980s, albeit not entirely complete for a variety of reasons). Three large file cabinets' worth.

 

[Mark1]

I cannot imagine that there'll ever be a comprehensive list -- although I'll readily acknowledge that there are lots of obsessive people on the internet, so I could be wrong about that!

Schematics are available for many of the vintage components -- www.hifiengine.com (speaking of obsessive ) is a darned good source of service documentation for a stunning array of hifi audio products old and new. Sams is still in business (for older components).

For the record, thanks to my father, I have a darned good collection of Sams schematics (back to Folder 11 and into the early 1980s, albeit not entirely complete for a variety of reasons). Three large file cabinets' worth.

I agree and don't expect anyone to make a comprehensive list let alone a complete one. Manufactures of tuners should be providing the info instead of keeping you in the dark about their products. I think it would make sense for a list to start with new tuners and include integrated ones and work back in years from there. I think that would apply to most people and tuners in current use. But on the other hand, most people who even care likely have a component tuner and a vintage one.

What do you or anyone else think of the short discussion at the link? The one poster mentioned two negative effects HDR can have on the analog and something about superior frequency range and distortion of vintage mono .vs later stereo broadcasting and tuners.

 

[mhardy6647]

Since I invoked the Sams collection...



(the oldest folders are in binders and are out in the shed -- even I have my limits as to how much junk can be in the house... it just ain't that big)

 

[RayDunzl]

Although it's still hard to see the music amplitude/loudness deviating the FM frequency and the music frequency dictating the frequency of the deviation

Just consider that the amplitude of a signal at any moment defines a point on a wave - and the changes in the output amplitude can create any frequency or mix of frequencies when plotted over time.

There's no need to mentally separate the two.

Consider digital recording - all it has in the data is amplitude over time but handily creates frequencies and the necessary amplitudes.

 

[mhardy6647]

Just consider that the amplitude of a signal at any moment defines a point on a wave - and the changes in the output amplitude can create any frequency or mix of frequencies when plotted over time.

There's no need to mentally separate the two.

Consider digital recording - all it has in the data is amplitude over time but handily creates frequencies and the necessary amplitudes.

conceptually* it's a little like a Fourier transform. Maybe more than a little -- come to think of it*

Information can be carried in an analog way by modulation of amplitude, frequency, or phase of the carrier, and subsequently recovered by demodulation. Just takes some L, C, and R -- and cleverness.

_______________
* bear in mind, y'all: I am a left handed analytical scientist, so my conceptions are a little skewed relative to normal folks'.

 

[Dimitri]

Stereo sounds a little louder and brighter with more treble, and wasn';t sure why

Mono vs stereo should be collapsing the soundstage for lack of a better term. That's it.

When in stereo sounds louder than mono, it implies the left and right channels are out of phase. Either accidentaly or on purpose.
In Stereo, this phase difference may give a sense of a widened soundstage.

If it's doing anything different, there is creative audio processing going on. ( or the received is defective ).
Since it's 2025, it's anyone's guess on how the audio is mangled before it modulates the transmitter!

Do you get the same loss of treble when listening to a classical music station ? ( Perhaps misguided but I have a little more trust that they will not go crazy with attempting to "enhance" their audio)

 

[sergeauckland]

I remember many and varied friendly arguments over pints at the BBC as to what is mono. Is it A+B, (A+B)/2 i.e. -6dB or (A+B)/root2, i.e. -3dB or something else. All have their adherers, and depends on circumstances. I think the consensus, after several pints, that (A+B) -4dB was a sensible compromise.

Funny what amuses us geeks...

S.

 

[mhardy6647]

I would've thought (A+B) -3 dB... but that'd be a SWAG at best.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Does anyone like *AM*
That should be the question

 

[RayDunzl]

Does anyone like *AM*

I miss Art Bell, "Coast to coast AM".

No matter how ridiculous the Guest or Subject, he always went right along with the interview.

It ranked right up there with locally produced Professional Wrestling (TV) in entertainment value.

 

[pollock0424]

I just restored these babies for the FM and may be cassettes.

I listen to Boise State Public Radio (BSPR/NPR), they play a lot of classical. However, their HD radio tends to clip...

I also listen to Jack FM, Bob FM, and River FM in the Boise Metro/Treasure Valley area. All the radio transmitters are located at 7500ft and the valley is at 4000ft so we're swamped by signals and not much multi-path issues unless you're behind a hill.

FM sounds pretty dang good in my car (Lexus GX 460).

 

[JeffS7444]

Does anyone like *AM*
That should be the question

CBS Radio Mystery Theater lasted until the early-1980s, good times.

 

[Dimitri]

I think the consensus, after several pints, that (A+B) -4dB was a sensible compromise.

Well...I guess depending on the number of pints, and considering "over there" beer is served warm -4dB doesn't sound too bad...
but if we are talking about the same thing, it's more like L+R -0.9dB
unless overmodulating, a station transmitting in Stereo will be about 1 db less loud than a station not going through an FM multiplexer ( which is probably what fueled the overprocessing "make it louder" disease )

 

[flightops]

Does anyone like *AM*
That should be the question

Nope.

Just as well. No Am stations remain anywhere here in a good couple hundred mile radius....it's dead.

 

[EJ3]

What originally got me looking more into HDR's effect on analog FM, and also related to stereo vs mono you and the self-noise link mention, was this short debate between two supposed experienced broadcasting engineers https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=424945 . At first I thought the 1st engineer was wrong and the rather snarky 2nd was right. Turns out the first engineer was more correct.

Agree the list is incomplete even for component tuners let alone integrated tuners. And I see no reason a tuner list should only mean literally component tuners and not tuners integrated into preamps and receivers when they are often the same tuner. I don't know which tuners have the filtering in the first place or which tuners are in which integrated components. That's why I need a complete list lol. That's why I think receivers are great bang for the buck, short of high-end components, often having essentially the same tuner, preamp amp and power amp already connected.

Interesting read, those broadcast engineers.
I have never seen or heard of a list like this for receivers.
Perhaps pick a great receiver and check it's tuner specs.
That is the only way I can think of to go about it.
Good luck, as I have some interest in this myself (but, since I generally have what I want, I'm not interested enough to bother to find out about the receivers).

 

[mhardy6647]

Does anyone like *AM*
That should be the question

It's an AM world
I AM you AM we AM
No one cares about Frequency Modulation anymore...

John Palumbo ca. 1979.

Youtube music link: Techni Generation by US rock band Crack the Sky, from their album White Music.

 

[Mark1]

Mono vs stereo should be collapsing the soundstage for lack of a better term. That's it.

When in stereo sounds louder than mono, it implies the left and right channels are out of phase. Either accidentaly or on purpose.
In Stereo, this phase difference may give a sense of a widened soundstage.

If it's doing anything different, there is creative audio processing going on. ( or the received is defective ).
Since it's 2025, it's anyone's guess on how the audio is mangled before it modulates the transmitter!

Do you get the same loss of treble when listening to a classical music station ? ( Perhaps misguided but I have a little more trust that they will not go crazy with attempting to "enhance" their audio)

If you mean switching between mono and stereo on the classic channel I don;t seem to get the same loss in treble and loudness. I seem to get the same loss in treble, along with loudness when switching to other stations from classical channel. Most of the other stations seemed processed loud, boosted treble (and bass) that is slightly reduced switching to mono.,

 

[Dimitri]

If you mean switching between mono and stereo on the classic channel I don;t seem to get the same loss in treble and loudness.

Yes that's what I mean.
Your observation confirms my two suspicions:
A) the classical music stations are not screwing around with the audio to a perceptible level.
B) the pop commercial stations ...are screwing around with the audio too much and all bets are off!
So, nothing wrong with your receiver at least !