do you play music at >100 dB or at 120 dB?

[flz]

I'm very confused by this. I understand hearing loss starts to become a risk above as low as 80 dB if sustained (2 hours of exposure) - see link below. Audio becomes painful to humans at 120 dB. I never listen to music at home anywhere near those levels. So what is the point of having a DAC or amplifier with 120 dB of dynamic range if I never listen that loud?

What Noises Cause Hearing Loss? | NCEH | CDC

 

[abdo123]

it's about noise. our hearing threshold for high frequencies is very low.

 

[kongwee]

It is about 3 db drop per meter away from speaker.

 

[flz]

It is about 3 db drop per meter away from speaker.

I think I understand that. What I'm hearing from my sofa is not the same as the loudness coming out of the speaker because of distance. What about for headphones? I surely don't need headphones capable of 120 dB dynamic range?

 

[Mart68]

I think I understand that. What I'm hearing from my sofa is not the same as the loudness coming out of the speaker because of distance. What about for headphones? I surely don't need headphones capable of 120 dB dynamic range?

you don't but it's worth remembering that noise and distortion is cumulative so it still makes sense to have as much headroom as possible.

You can have too little but you can't have too much.

 

[antcollinet]

Dynamic range is not about absolute volume, it is the difference between the loudest volume and quietest volume in a piece of music.

Interestingly 120dB is also equivalent to 20 bits.

So if your music is 20 bits, the theoretical difference between the loudest and quitest signal that can be represented in that music is 120dB. So anything with less DR can effectively not deliver the full resolution of 20 bit recordings.

Now I'd argue that anything beyond 16 bits is probably inaudible - but hey, we also have 24bit available. So if we are going for that then we should also be looking for kit with enough DR to render it.



Note - this also means you can be listening with your SPL peaks at 60dB with 120dB dynamic range, putting your noise floor (at least from your DAC) at SPL -60dB

 

[flz]

Dynamic range is not about absolute volume, it is the difference between the loudest volume and quietest volume in a piece of music.

Interestingly 120dB is also equivalent to 20 bits.

So if your music is 20 bits, the theoretical difference between the loudest and quitest signal that can be represented in that music is 120dB. So anything with less DR can effectively not deliver the full resolution of 20 bit recordings.

Now I'd argue that anything beyond 16 bits is probably inaudible - but hey, we also have 24bit available. So if we are going for that then we should also be looking for kit with enough DR to render it.

Total silence is 0 dB, right? It can't go negative? So the quietest volume is 0 dB. As for the loudest volume, let's say I never play music where the loudest passage coming out of the speakers (when measured right at the speaker - not from my listening position) goes above 100 dB. Then what is the relevance that it can in theory go to 120 dB? I'm sorry for being technically challenged unlike you guys!

 

[antcollinet]

Total silence is 0 dB, right? It can't go negative? So the quietest volume is 0 dB. As for the loudest volume, let's say I never play music where the loudest passage coming out of the speakers (when measured right at the speaker - not from my listening position) goes above 100 dB. Then what is the relevance that it can in theory go to 120 dB? I'm sorry for being technically challenged unlike you guys!

No. DB is always a ratio. Relative to some defined level. 0dB doesn't mean silence. 0dB is actually the reference level. (0dB is a ratio of 1:1)

 

[antcollinet]

See:

What is Sound Pressure Level (SPL) and how is it measured?

What is Sound Pressure Level (SPL) and how it's measured using an SPL meter. Find out in Pulsar Instruments blog.

pulsarinstruments.com

Sound pressure level (SPL) is the pressure level of a sound, measured in decibels (dB). It is equal to 20 x the Log10 of the ratio of the Route Mean Square (RMS) of sound pressure to the reference of sound pressure (the reference sound pressure in air is 2 x 10-5 N/m2, or 0,00002 Pa). Or, in other words is the ratio of the absolute sound pressure against a reference level of sound in the air.

So 0dB means 0.00002 Pa. +dB is above this -dB is below it. Each 6dB in either direction is a doubling (or halving) of the value.


EDIT : Having said that - that reference level of SPL has been set at a level round about the limit of human hearing. It is certainly well below the ambient noise level you are likely to have in your listening room. So in some respects, you are correct. There is not much point in 120dB of DR. But this also applies to "High resolution" music. There is equally little point in more than 16bits in recorded music.

 

[flz]

Thanks for the answers. It seems I've misunderstood the issue entirely.

 

[Sancus]

Commercial music tops out around 60dB of dynamic range aside from a few very unusual recordings and most is far far less, 10-20dB is common for modern pop.

So no, no real need for the dynamic range in the best DACs. Low noise can be useful to prevent hiss on high sensitivity speakers though.

DACs beyond the 100dB SINAD mark and $50-100 point are about build quality, features, aesthetics, and just appreciation for good engineering. They're not necessary for good sound.

Bit strange you made two topics for the same basic question, mind.

 

[theREALdotnet]

If the SPL at where I am exceeds 90dB(A) I’m leaving the room. I can’t stand extreme volume. My typical listening level peaks at 70-80dB(A).

 

[flz]

Bit strange you made two topics for the same basic question, mind.

I appreciate your point. Variations on a theme, I suppose? To me, I wasn't asking the exact same question, but they are similar - have to admit.

 

[charleski]

Remember that what really matters is the amount of energy transmitted to your ear. This is a function of loudness x exposure time, as shown here:

How to "Look" at Noise Chart | NIOSH | CDC

Graphic: How to "look" at noise: intensity comparisons with NIOSH recommended possible exposure time.

www.cdc.gov

So extremely brief peaks of 110dB+ with an average level of 85dB over an hour or two may be fairly innocuous, but the same length of exposure to an average level of 95dB will easily cause damage. A lot depends on the dynamic range of the music you listen to.

 

[Mnyb]

If you use eq or digital volume controls snr over 100dB can be a good insurance that you are not likely to have noise issues at all . I use a topping D70 and and decent headphone amp , the eq throws away about 10dB .

But i’m Not having any noise issues whatsoever

 

[IPunchCholla]

Dynamic range is not about absolute volume, it is the difference between the loudest volume and quietest volume in a piece of music.

Interestingly 120dB is also equivalent to 20 bits.

So if your music is 20 bits, the theoretical difference between the loudest and quitest signal that can be represented in that music is 120dB. So anything with less DR can effectively not deliver the full resolution of 20 bit recordings.

Now I'd argue that anything beyond 16 bits is probably inaudible - but hey, we also have 24bit available. So if we are going for that then we should also be looking for kit with enough DR to render it.



Note - this also means you can be listening with your SPL peaks at 60dB with 120dB dynamic range, putting your noise floor (at least from your DAC) at SPL -60dB

I’ve been curious about the 16 vs24 but issue. I seem to be pretty good at guessing if I’m listening to a 24 bit vs 16 bit stream on Apple Music. I think my sister chess rate is 75% or so. But I’m wondering if what I’m hearing is different mastering choices that might be correlating with the bit depth and not the theoretical gain in DR. I guess I should ABX it.

 

[antcollinet]

Most likely different mastering. In Amirs argument for high res music - the benefit isn't in better sound, but that Hi res is more likely to be mastered without the dynamic range compression that plagues modern CD mastering. The 16 bit files are far more likely to be direct copies of the CD masters.

And even if you ABX it - you'll not know if it is due to masters. So if you want to check if you can tell the difference, you need to take a 24bit file, and down convert it to 16 bit (making sure you do it properly) and then compare the 24bit with the converted 16 bit. I'm fairly confident you won't hear a difference.

 

[ahofer]

Which weighting system is right? I have an iPhone Decibel-meter app and you can choose A, C, Z, NR or NC. I’ve been using db-C. My listening volume tends to put peaks just over 80, and the rest 60s and 70s. A little lower if you switch to A (which I think uses a more restricted frequency band?).

 

[dc655321]

Which weighting system is right? I have an iPhone Decibel-meter app and you can choose A, C, Z, NR or NC. I’ve been using db-C. My listening volume tends to put peaks just over 80, and the rest 60s and 70s. A little lower if you switch to A (which I think uses a more restricted frequency band?).

Z is unweighted.

 

[abdo123]

Most likely different mastering. In Amirs argument for high res music - the benefit isn't in better sound, but that Hi res is more likely to be mastered without the dynamic range compression that plagues modern CD mastering. The 16 bit files are far more likely to be direct copies of the CD masters.

I never witnessed such a thing myself. It's not like you can submit different files for the same track on Apple music.