Do high-efficiency speakers really have better 'dynamics'?

[DrCWO]

Rms causing loss of low-level detail is a hypothesis that can be originated from the idea that the mechanical resistance to movement sort of jams the movement of the cone, like stiction friction - needs a certain amount of force to make it move at all.

If this was the case, it would show up in distortion measurements. Distortion would show a massive increase at low spl levels - which, at least I have never seen on any driver, regardless of what Rms they claim to have seen from the specifications.

I think it is not correct that it would show up in distortion measurements at low level.

I did some listening tests with amplifiers driving my horn system.
The amount of microdetail I can perceive seems to be related to the SINAD of the amplifier if all other parameters (Roon Speaker, other electronics) stays the same (I ran a RME-ADI 2 pro DAC directly into the tested amplifiers). The range of SINAD of the amplifiers I tested was between 80dB and 110dB and was clearly audible.

As far as I know acoustic measurements cannot be carried out at such low levels because of environmental noise. Any ideas how to measure the SINAD of a speaker?

 

[Kvalsvoll]

I think it is not correct that it would show up in distortion measurements at low level.

I did some listening tests with amplifiers driving my horn system.
The amount of microdetail I can perceive seems to be related to the SINAD of the amplifier if all other parameters (Roon Speaker, other electronics) stays the same (I ran a RME-ADI 2 pro DAC directly into the tested amplifiers). The range of SINAD of the amplifiers I tested was between 80dB and 110dB and was clearly audible.

As far as I know acoustic measurements cannot be carried out at such low levels because of environmental noise. Any ideas how to measure the SINAD of a speaker?

It can be measured, and it is not extremely difficult. The problem with all measurements is analysis and interpretation - how do the graphs and numbers relate to what we hear.

Here, as with most of the problems we "discover" in audio, it is the large, obvious, huge problems that causes real audible differences. Looking for obscure phenomenon that is difficult to measure because the effects drown in noise when trying to measure and verify, rarely leads to useful knowledge.

 

[JRS]

It makes sense that many high sensitivity speakers are that way due to horn loading, which providing a better impedance match to the air in the room, can sound more dynamic. Add in directivity, softer suspension, potential lack of thermal compression and its beginning to look audible in some cases, maybe even likely?

That said they all sound like one trick pont PA systems to my ears. 15 foot wide girl and guitar, not really my thing..

I agree about the horns--you set a lot of air into motion instantly. Same can be said for large panel speakers which can have superb dynamics, e.g. Sanders 10e. At least that's my naive understanding. Point sources produce spherical waves and are also spread out more--so the directivity is a factor as well.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

How on earth can a passive speaker driver have self-noise? Distortion, absolutely. But noise???? I think not.

 

[JRS]

... (snip)If you are interested in going down this rabbit hole, read the 'beyond the ariel' thread on DIY audio.....it will take you a couple of years to read, and you still won't get any answers!

Recced for ref to that thread. I wasted several hours just getting started and that was many years ago. Decided far better ways to spend a weekend.

 

[MattHooper]

Dang! Once again I listened to the Klipsch La Scalas at my friend's place and I find them bewitching, within their limitations. (I couldn't live with their limitations). Listened to a couple John Zorn albums among other things - piano, drums, bass, some acoustic guitar tracks etc.

Those damned La Scalas just sound more "alive" than most speakers I've heard. The sensation of really hearing a solid drum kit, of those very particular modulations in force of the piano player, the picking of the acoustic guitar. It just pings the "live" memory module in my brain.

I listened again to the big Estelon speakers he has as well, a much more modern design, and though they sounded more "real" in the sense of, say, producing more of the full weight of bass and drums, and sounded very refined, they just didn't have the same sense of density and subtle dynamic realism. It least that's how I heard things.

I'd love to have the La Scalas in a second system, as a sonic place to visit once in a while.

 

[mocenigo]

The 'giant headphone' effect is exactly what I have gone for. The proof that I achieved that is that binaural recordings work just as well over these speakers as over headphones. However the sound is not 'very forward' - this problem is something I worked on for years to eliminate. Wide dispersion is something I specifically don't want or need. I want to hear the recording, not the room.

A chacun son goût, of course. For the same reason I am not looking at dipoles (for mids and highs) and omnidirectional speakers. I have a 80º x 30º (H x V) waveguide for mids and treble, and the mid woofer crosses where horizontal dispersion is 80º. By turning the speakers reasonably towards the centre I do not depend too much on the room, while allowing me to move a bit without major tonal balance shift. I want to hear the recording as well, but I do not want to feel like I have been poured into concrete to "enjoy" it.

 

[tuga]

Some bold claims by Avangarde regarding horn speakers:

• 8 x times higher dynamic bandwidth
• 90% less distortions
• 10 x times more details

 

[dasdoing]

8 x times higher dynamic bandwidth

just means it gets louder

90% less distortions

just means it gets louder

10 x times more details

just means it gets louder


now it is not hard to find "normal" drivers which are loud enough without audible distorsion. I don't see any advantage, unless for an outdoor event

 

[thewas]

Some bold claims by Avangarde regarding horn speakers:

• 8 x times higher dynamic bandwidth
• 90% less distortions
• 10 x times more details

Here are the measurements of Goertz that they refer to https://www.fidelity-online.de/avantgarde-acoustic-zero-1-messungen/

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Some bold claims by Avangarde regarding horn speakers:

• 8 x times higher dynamic bandwidth
• 90% less distortions
• 10 x times more details

The first three paragraphs, I don't have much issue with.
When it gets to praising their own speakers, then that becomes a different issue.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

just means it gets louder
just means it gets louder
just means it gets louder
now it is not hard to find "normal" drivers which are loud enough without audible distorsion. I don't see any advantage, unless for an outdoor event

As you said they go loud, but they do it (full horn speakers) with only a few watts!
Single ended class A Tube amplifier owners love them.

 

[Godataloss]

now it is not hard to find "normal" drivers which are loud enough without audible distorsion.

I think most people miss the point about efficiency. It's not just about the lack of power that's needed for a given db, it's the amount of movement or work the individual drivers have to do. Isn't it simple physics that a driver is going to be better behaved if it isn't constantly fighting it's own inertia? I love how the 'just apply more power' factions or the 'just hand bass duties off to a subwoofer' faction glosses over this fact when each one of those approaches adds its own set of compromises.

 

[JRS]

On most recordings Drums run through a compressor to limit dynamics. To be sure uncompressed drum recordings should be compared with live drums.

Can't find it at the moment, but one recording that got it right was an LP by Micky Hart of the Dead--circa 1988. My friend and I had both built 15" JBL subs of 4.5 cu' based on a article in Audio, and just to see what stereo subs would do, one afternoon set them up in his rather large apt. It's the only time in my life I was physically frightened by the impact and dynamics of a drum kit. That sounded real. And when I say frightened--it was the visceral kind of fear/terror akin to a righteous roller coaster ride. That's the only time--and been to plenty of Hi-End shows since. I hope to recreate some of that character by feeding 1kw/side to some Acoustic Elegance bass bins--the immediacy or jump factor or whatever you want to call it was in the room that day, and I will never forget it. (there was one other occasion but that was at a studio with 1/2 wall sized horns being fed by 4 JBL 15's per side. The horns themselves were poured concrete on the property the size of RV's).

 

[dasdoing]

I think most people miss the point about efficiency. It's not just about the lack of power that's needed for a given db, it's the amount of movement or work the individual drivers have to do. Isn't it simple physics that a driver is going to be better behaved if it isn't constantly fighting it's own inertia? I love how the 'just apply more power' factions or the 'just hand bass duties off to a subwoofer' faction glosses over this fact when each one of those approaches adds its own set of compromises.

so what you get from that advantage? lower distorsion, right?
again: it is not hard to find "normal" drivers which are loud enough without audible distorsion


I would love to have a horn speaker btw. I have a treated room and the limited dispersion would come handy.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The impulse response in the article is very similar to what I get with my HF horns.

 

[Tom Danley]

Some bold claims by Avangarde regarding horn speakers:

• 8 x times higher dynamic bandwidth
• 90% less distortions
• 10 x times more details

I hesitate to comment being a "horn guy" for much of my life but yet I must.

First about moving mass, it is hard for many to grasp that it is moving mass that makes an acoustically small radiator (where the radiator is less than K=1 in dimension) have "flat response". To be "flat" it MUST follow an acceleration response (where the velocity falls with increasing F) !.
With an acceleration controlled response, the excursion increases by a factor of four, for each octave you go down in frequency.

This also means that if one attaches an additional mass (say doubling the total mass) to the voice coil of a driver, the sensitivity and free air resonance is lowered BUT the HF corner is unchanged!

It might be confusing here because a "big heavy" woofer rolls off up high but that is primarily because that woofer has much more electrical inductance (due to it's larger voice coil) which IS an electrical roll off.

A proper horn on the other hand feels the radiation resistance and the horn mouth typically greater than K=-1 in it's operating range (an exception would be a bass horn where the mouth may be less than K=1 in the bottom of it's F range.)

Driving a resistance to get flat response one needs a Velocity response which means that the excursion doubles (instead of 4x) for each octave you go down an octave in frequency.

As opposed to the direct radiator, the moving mass DOES roll off the power response at the high end and so horn drivers normally have a much stronger motor for the area of the radiator and the voice coil inductance IS also a roll off AND so is the acoustic low pass filter which is produced by the air volume between the radiator and the mass of the air in the throat so often one see's 3 separate roll off slopes at the high end of a horn response.

That acoustic power response roll off is often "disguised" by using a curved wall horn and in a perfect world, one can use the narrowing radiation angle to concentrate the energy on axis so that it compliments the power response roll off to maintain a more "Flat response" on axis. This why constant directivity horns require "CD compensation" as a constant radiation angle does not hide the driver's falling power response.

Fwiw, some years ago i was asked to write a chapter on loudspeakers in a book (below) where i tried to use plain English, analogies and examples to explain drivers, back EMF and some other aspects of loudspeakers.

If you can borrow a copy, this might be of interest to other cone heads.

Handbook for Sound Engineers (Audio Engineering Society Presents): Ballou, Glen: 9780415842938: Amazon.com: Books

Handbook for Sound Engineers (Audio Engineering Society Presents) [Ballou, Glen] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Handbook for Sound Engineers (Audio Engineering Society Presents)

www.amazon.com

Lastly, a minor quibble is using an impulse response to infer something broad band. The impulse response visually shows the HF response's behavior and the lower one goes in Frequency, the less one can see anything indicative.
Best Regards
Tom Danley

 

[Godataloss]

so what you get from that advantage? lower distorsion, right?
again: it is not hard to find "normal" drivers which are loud enough without audible distorsion


I would love to have a horn speaker btw. I have a treated room and the limited dispersion would come handy.

I don't believe this is the case unless your 'loud enough' standard is quite low, you are using multiple of these 'normal' drivers, or you are passing off duties to a subwoofer at quite high frequencies. Again, these are all approaches that have distinct trade-offs.

 

[dasdoing]

The impulse response in the article is very similar to what I get with my HF horns.

the step response?
It a little ringy though. after 10ms it is till at 30%.
the shape is obviously perfect

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I think most people miss the point about efficiency. It's not just about the lack of power that's needed for a given db, it's the amount of movement or work the individual drivers have to do. Isn't it simple physics that a driver is going to be better behaved if it isn't constantly fighting it's own inertia? ( and the amp fighting the back-emf ) I love how the 'just apply more power' factions or the 'just hand bass duties off to a subwoofer' faction glosses over this fact when each one of those approaches adds its own set of compromises.