Designing Speakers For Music As You Would Experience It Live - Interview with Roy Delgado

[egellings]

Agree.

Nothing wrong with it IMO. I personally feel most comfortable with capital-F Fidelity, but there's no rule against liking something else. I think the only problem arises when people try to pass off preference or conjecture as fact when it comes to coloration or lack thereof.

Nothing wrong with Big Tone if you enjoy it.

 

[Duke]

Do you know what the recording was? When I've had this sort of experience it's usually because the recording was really dynamic, and it was played loud.

I have no idea, unfortunately. They were still setting up the room, everyone in the room was busy, boxes scattered. And agreed, it was almost certainly an excellent recording.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

On the Thursday evening before Axpona 2022 opened I was walking on the ground floor. With me was a musician who played multiple instruments. Down a wide walkway we could hear a saxaphone being played, and there was a door open on that side of the walkway. I looked at him and he looked at me, and we were both bug-eyed. I said, "THAT sounds like a live saxaphone!" and he agreed; saxaphpone is one of the instruments he plays. So we made a beeline for the open doorway. Was there a performance going on? Was somebody using a live-versus-recorded saxaphone to help them set up their room? Nope. Somebody was playing a pair of Klipsch Jubilee speakers in a very large room.

So after you got in the room did it still sound like a live saxophone?

 

[Duke]

So after you got in the room did it still sound like a live saxophone?

I don't recall a noticeable shift in timbre when I entered the room, but now I knew I was hearing speakers. My expectation bias was now engaged.

USUALLY what happens is the timbre improves noticeably when you enter the room, probably because the direct sound is now dominant or at least prominent, and usually the direct sound sounds better than the power response. I think the Jubilees has consistent enough pattern control over enough of the frequency range that there was relatively little spectral difference between the direct sound and the power response, at least within the frequency region of saxophone.

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't recall a noticeable shift in timbre when I entered the room, but now I knew I was hearing speakers. My expectation bias was now engaged.

USUALLY what happens is the timbre improves noticeably when you enter the room, probably because the direct sound is now dominant or at least prominent, and usually the direct sound sounds better than the power response. I think the Jubilees has consistent enough pattern control over enough of the frequency range that there was relatively little spectral difference between the direct sound and the power response, at least within the frequency region of saxophone.

So I have a personal theory on why speakers like this tend to produce the "hearing a live instrument from outside the room" effect, which is that their dynamic range is really high. The idea is that the sense of "liveness" is more from very high dynamics than anything in particular about frequency response.

This occurred to me because I realized pretty much every recording is compressed quite a bit to make it reasonable to play back on a home system. Therefore, maybe "liveness" would have to do with lack of compression, i.e. dynamic range.

This impression is going to depend on the recording as much as the speaker, but if you're going to fool the ear, according to this hunch you'd also need a very dynamic speaker.

An average home system can't really match the dynamic range of a piano (or sax) close-up. But the jubilees are not what I would call "average" in that regard...

What do you think?

 

[Talisman]

Cosa ne pensi?

Quasi tutti i diffusori Klipsch, anche quelli delle serie meno blasonate come gli RP, hanno mostrato grandi capacità dinamiche ad alti spl, cioè la capacità di mantenere una risposta in frequenza coerente anche a livelli di spl più alti, senza comprimere la risposta (o comprimerla meno rispetto ad altri diffusori simili in termini di prezzo/dimensioni) questo porta ad un suono forte e alla preservazione della dinamica (come per gli strumentisti dal vivo) e questo potrebbe favorire la sensazione della musica "dal vivo".

 

[kemmler3D]

I see we are in agreement! (although looks like the italian <--> english translation didn't work on your reply this time)

 

[Duke]

So I have a personal theory on why speakers like this tend to produce the "hearing a live instrument from outside the room" effect, which is that their dynamic range is really high. The idea is that the sense of "liveness" is more from very high dynamics than anything in particular about frequency response.

This occurred to me because I realized pretty much every recording is compressed quite a bit to make it reasonable to play back on a home system. Therefore, maybe "liveness" would have to do with lack of compression, i.e. dynamic range.

This impression is going to depend on the recording as much as the speaker, but if you're going to fool the ear, according to this hunch you'd also need a very dynamic speaker.

An average home system can't really match the dynamic range of a piano (or sax) close-up. But the jubilees are not what I would call "average" in that regard...

What do you think?

Yes, but... ime crappy-but-loud PA speakers still sound like crappy-but-loud PA speakers from the next room.

I think the spectral balance of the sound coming through the door - presumably the power response plus interaction with the room's acoustics - matters too. Most speakers have a downward-tilted power response, and to my ears most speakers tend to sound somewhat dull and lifeless from outside the room.

I have heard speakers with relatively flat power responses sound very good from outside the room even if they are not dynamic monsters. So...

In my opinion "that sounds GOOD from outside the room" requires good frequency response from outside the room, BUT "that sounds LIVE from outside the room" ALSO requires the kind of dynamics you are talking about.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yes, but... ime crappy-but-loud PA speakers still sound like crappy-but-loud PA speakers from the next room.

I think the spectral balance of the sound coming through the door - presumably the power response plus interaction with the room's acoustics - matters too. Most speakers have a downward-tilted power response, and to my ears most speakers tend to sound somewhat dull and lifeless from outside the room.

I have heard speakers with relatively flat power responses sound very good from outside the room even if they are not dynamic monsters. So...

In my opinion "that sounds GOOD from outside the room" requires good frequency response from outside the room, BUT "that sounds LIVE from outside the room" ALSO requires the kind of dynamics you are talking about.

The power response point is a good one, you made me realize that when someone drives by with a loud car stereo, it's still really hard to hear the music clearly, no matter what it sounds like inside the car, because the treble is mostly missing and otherwise a mess. I guess the same thing would be happening for most speakers from outside the room, to a lesser extent.

 

[MarkS]

So I have a personal theory on why speakers like this tend to produce the "hearing a live instrument from outside the room" effect, which is that their dynamic range is really high.

Certainly plausible.

I would love to test this by listening outside the room to different speaker types playing the same recording at the same volume.

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

So I have a personal theory on why speakers like this tend to produce the "hearing a live instrument from outside the room" effect, which is that their dynamic range is really high. The idea is that the sense of "liveness" is more from very high dynamics than anything in particular about frequency response.

This occurred to me because I realized pretty much every recording is compressed quite a bit to make it reasonable to play back on a home system. Therefore, maybe "liveness" would have to do with lack of compression, i.e. dynamic range.

This impression is going to depend on the recording as much as the speaker, but if you're going to fool the ear, according to this hunch you'd also need a very dynamic speaker.

An average home system can't really match the dynamic range of a piano (or sax) close-up. But the jubilees are not what I would call "average" in that regard...

What do you think?

This is pretty much my philosophy in audio reproduction. You need dynamic capability in your playback system since music (and other sources) are naturally very dynamic.
You also need a reasonably-flat and "extended enough" frequency response (ie: I don't care if there are peaks / dips, so long as they aren't really bad, and the system must reproduce all of the signal, so bass down to say 40hz, and treble up to say 16khz), as well as good directivity.

In my opinion: without meeting these two criteria, you cannot hope to fool a listener who has actually heard live music, into believing that your playback is a real performance.

 

[Duke]

This is pretty much my philosophy in audio reproduction. You need dynamic capability in your playback system since music (and other sources) are naturally very dynamic.
You also need a reasonably-flat and "extended enough" frequency response (ie: I don't care if there are peaks / dips, so long as they aren't really bad, and the system must reproduce all of the signal, so bass down to say 40hz, and treble up to say 16khz), as well as good directivity.

In my opinion: without meeting these two criteria, you cannot hope to fool a listener who has actually heard live music, into believing that your playback is a real performance.

My understanding is that musicians often use dynamic range to convey emotion.

 

[MattHooper]

Ime it is rare for speakers to create the subjective impression of hearing a live instrument from outside the room, and imo it can be indicitave of the speakers getting the spectral balance of the reflection field correct. Imo it tells us nothing about the direct sound.

One of my "it sounds real from outside the room" experiences was early on at a CES. I was walking the corridors and suddenly struck in hearing what sounded impressively like a live band coming from one room. I walked through the door and that was my very first encounter with the big MBL 101D speakers. It still sounded quite "live" even in the room. I never forgot that.

(And as I've mentioned before, the smaller MBLs I owned produced the most realistic "from outside the room sound" of some recordings than any other speaker I owned).

I remember some Avant Garde horn speakers also drawing me in to the room (before I knew what system was playing) with some trumpet-centered music that sounded particularly live.

 

[Talisman]

I see we are in agreement! (although looks like the italian <--> english translation didn't work on your reply this time)

You are absolutely right and I apologize to everyone for the bad translations, unfortunately I don't know English, it's the only way to communicate on the site and rely on Google Translate

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

My understanding is that musicians often use dynamic range to convey emotion.

True, partially. My perspective is one of a live sound professional. A vocal mic, with a vocalist in front of it, can be a very dynamic source as the performer moves around, and sings various parts of their song. They cannot be constantly in one place when singing, and sometimes vary their distance to the mic intentionally in order to manipulate the proximity effect of some mics. -- However, as they move, the signal level changes.
We use compression to level out those peaks, and to generate a more consistent level for our mix. This is because in order to have consistent relative levels between our sources, say an electric guitar running through an amp modeler, and the aforementioned vocal mic, we must ensure that they have a semi-consistent dynamic-ness.
So since the vocalist is very dynamic, we must compress them to allow a consistent relative level to our guitar.
And then, once we have a consistent mix between our vocals and our guitar, we can add some reverb into the mix to give the vocalist a more "full" sound.

But this is not on the topic of designing speakers to reproduce live music.
I will add one anecdote: I recently did an event with a performer, an electric guitar, and some backing tracks. Obviously I had a PA system, comprised of good quality speakers, which were powerful enough to hit my SPL target in the area I wanted to cover.
Despite me compressing the vocal mic signal, and using reverb and EQ, it still sounded "real". My theory is that it sounded real since I still had plenty of headroom, and because I left the vocal relatively un-processed (at least compared to most studio mixes).

 

[Matt_Holland]

I will never understand statements like this.

Understand or just you don’t agree?

If a speaker manufacturer deliberately engineers a non-linear house sound for its products and does it well by controlling directivity and keeping distortion low, then I see nothing wrong. This can still be good engineering.

In my opinion it’s a good thing if customers have choice in how their music is reproduced.

What is not good is a manufacturer spouting pseudo scientific nonsense to promote its badly engineered product even if appeals to some people.

 

[MattHooper]

True, partially. My perspective is one of a live sound professional. A vocal mic, with a vocalist in front of it, can be a very dynamic source as the performer moves around, and sings various parts of their song. They cannot be constantly in one place when singing, and sometimes vary their distance to the mic intentionally in order to manipulate the proximity effect of some mics. -- However, as they move, the signal level changes.
We use compression to level out those peaks, and to generate a more consistent level for our mix. This is because in order to have consistent relative levels between our sources, say an electric guitar running through an amp modeler, and the aforementioned vocal mic, we must ensure that they have a semi-consistent dynamic-ness.
So since the vocalist is very dynamic, we must compress them to allow a consistent relative level to our guitar.
And then, once we have a consistent mix between our vocals and our guitar, we can add some reverb into the mix to give the vocalist a more "full" sound.

But this is not on the topic of designing speakers to reproduce live music.
I will add one anecdote: I recently did an event with a performer, an electric guitar, and some backing tracks. Obviously I had a PA system, comprised of good quality speakers, which were powerful enough to hit my SPL target in the area I wanted to cover.
Despite me compressing the vocal mic signal, and using reverb and EQ, it still sounded "real". My theory is that it sounded real since I still had plenty of headroom, and because I left the vocal relatively un-processed (at least compared to most studio mixes).

Interestingly, I think most of us have had the experience of noticing the difference between live and recorded music even through PA systems. A live band through a PA system still tends to sound live, versus recorded music tracks (often before and between bands play recorded music tracks are played).

I happen to live on one of the busiest near downtown strips in my city for live music. There are constantly live bands playing on street corners. And there are many bars with live bands, often playing, some un amplified, other amplified. Especially when the weather is nice the windows and doors are open on these clubs, so the sound comes right out onto the sidewalk. It always seems obvious when I’m approaching a live band playing just from the sound versus a recording.

 

[antcollinet]

But bias is introduced by expectation.

Expectation bias is just one of the many many biases that can take a pop at what you perceive,

My expectation would have been to hear what sounded like loudspeakers

But in any case, that is not how bias works. Expectation bias has nothing to do with your conscious expectations. They are subconcious processes. Just as in the McGurk effect you KNOW that the sound isn't changing, but you have a lifetime of understanding speech that tells your subconscious that *that* mouth shape sounds like Ba - and *this* one sounds like Fa - so that is what you hear. It doesn't matter that you know how you are being fooled - your conscious expectation (knowledge) cannot stop it happening.

Here is the thing - it doesn't really matter. I don't really care. That speaker you heard may be the most life like speaker that has ever been built. If you like it, that is fine, I'm not going to argue.

My main point is that describing your subjective perception of the sound you heard while wandering along a corridor not even in the room with the speaker is not a convincing way to convey to anyone else very much about the speaker. It's just a little too much like "even my wife could hear it from the kitchen"

 

[antcollinet]

Understand or just you don’t agree?

If a speaker manufacturer deliberately engineers a non-linear house sound for its products and does it well by controlling directivity and keeping distortion low, then I see nothing wrong. This can still be good engineering.

In my opinion it’s a good thing if customers have choice in how their music is reproduced.

Understand. Toole et al demonstrated a (large?) majority preference for a particular in room response. So if a manufacturer is going to deviate from that, then from day one they are going to be limiting their market share.

Then - how do they decide what their house sound is going to be? How do they know which particular sound is going to suit a decent proportion of those who are left? Unless they repeat Toole's work, it seems the only way they have is to come up with something that sounds good to them?

Finally - for the customer - how do they find out that this particular manufacturers house sound is what they want or need, especially since you can't hear what you are buying until you get it into your room? Other than by expensive trial and error?

I fail to understand how this can be a winning strategy for anyone.

 

[kemmler3D]

describing your subjective perception of the sound you heard while wandering along a corridor not even in the room with the speaker is not a convincing way to convey to anyone else very much about the speaker. It's just a little too much like "even my wife could hear it from the kitchen"

I do think this is an interesting phenomenon though, because we're all familiar with hearing music coming from the window and having a sense of whether it's live or not. I'd love to know more about what causes this and whether / to what extent it translates into in-room listening.