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Denon vs Marantz (I know, the age old question)

wseroyer

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I'm starting this post not because I want to know the difference between the two brands. But more because I want to ask the question of "Why does Marantz need to exist". Whenever someone ask what the difference is between the two brand, the answer that seems to pop up most commonly is "Marantz has a warmer and more musical sound", what the F does that even mean! So much of audiophilia is other audiofools just repeating what marketing says, and that's literally what Phil Jones has said in his Sound United webinars! I love Phil and I find his webinars extremely useful and insightful, but he does work for Sound United and is the Director of Global Training for the company. Which means he's teaching people how to market Sound United's different brands and how to sell them. Not to find concrete technical reasons as to why you should spend a extra $500 on a Marantz with exact same features as the equivalent Denon model. Maybe this sounds like bitching, but I'm getting tired of people just repeating the same things over and over and thinking they are hearing that "warm musical sound" because its been implanted in their head by the marketing division of Sound United. As far as what I can tell from Amir's measurement's and Reviews of Marantz's AVR's, is that they basically take a wonderfully built and engineered Denon AVR, put a toroidal transformer in it, then have the Japanese Scarface of Hi-Fi listen to it and he gives it that "warm, musical" Marantz sound that they are apparently known for. in reality what he is doing is basically is messing up all of the measurements and making the Marantz version worse. And you get to pay extra for the privilege of owning a worse product! Please tell me i'm crazy or that i'm wrong, but this has been the overall feeling I get about Marantz. When I see people buying their "AVR's" I can't help but think to my self, "why did you waste the money for something worse because of its Badge". And in reality that's what Marantz really is its Badge engineering, its the Cadillac Escalade of the the Chevy Tahoe, but GM actually gives you something more when you step up to the Escalade unlike Sound United.

Japanese Scarface of Hi-Fi
Scarface of Sound.jpg
 

Head_Unit

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But come on, let loose now, tell us how you REALLY feel! ;)

I think it's just different distribution, like Scion for Toyota. Or better, Hyundai versus Kia, which have the same platforms but end customers have different views about each brand. And I think Marantz uses skinnier resistors, which then run warmer for a warmer sound.
 
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wseroyer

wseroyer

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But come on, let loose now, tell us how you REALLY feel! ;)

I think it's just different distribution, like Scion for Toyota. Or better, Hyundai versus Kia, which have the same platforms but end customers have different views about each brand. And I think Marantz uses skinnier resistors, which then run warmer for a warmer sound.


I was in a rantie mood at 1 am.
 

JJB70

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If people are still buying Marantz and it is a profitable brand (no idea if it is or not) then it is still sensible to keep making and selling it. I think in some markets Marantz still has more brand recognition than Denon and some see it as a more desirable brand.
 

L5730

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This might help to shed light on the bo__ox around Marantz, that was, at one time a decent manufacturer. But let's not forget it was Denon who actually pressed CDs i Japan and did that side of the stuff right at the beginning.

https://www.whathifi.com/features/was-then-marantz-cd-63-mkii-ki-signature

Back in the day (mid 90's to mid 00's) whenever we heard an overpriced KI version, it just sounded like a Technics. Why pay twice the price of the Technics to sound like a Technics? Especially when the base model Marantz seemed to sound better (fuller) by comparison.
Of course, absolutely no measurements were taken at the time, and level matching was shaky at best, normally assumed sources were all the same output volume through the same amp.
 

escksu

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You should google what is brand value and how important it is. Only then will you understand measurements, technical aspect of products arent really that important. Most pple do not purchase products based on specs or measured values.

This brand factor is most apparent in luxury goods and cars. Eg. German brands like BMW, Mercedes, audi. Are their cars truly superior compared to japanese or korean cars? Or is it because of the badge? Those LV, Gucci, Prada etc... Are their bags superior?? No, its mostly made of the same material as cheap ones. Most are even made in the same factory. But its the brand that people are after.

This is all part of consumer behaviour. People recognise the brand. The value of brand is the most important factor. Hence, sales and marketing.

Now to answer your question. Marantz merge in Denon in 2002. During this time, both brands are already pretty well known in the market. There is a demand for both brands and definitely fans. So, like what JJB70 has said, if marantz is making money, there is no reason to stop it. It is safe to say there are many who still recognise and like the Marantz brand name. People will not simply go buy Denon just because both are the same company.

Btw, in case you are wondering if it makes sense, this is extremely common in the business world. Taking automobile again as an example. General Motors. Look at the brands of automoble under them. Even other companies like fiat (owns ferrari), porsche (owns volkswagen, audi etc) etc...

So, hopefully this answers your question. Its was never about technical aspects at all.
 
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escksu

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Just to add. Google for Hyundai Genesis. Hyundao tried very hard to create a car to rival the BMW. On the techical side, they succeeded. All the test results etc... But it ultimately failed. Simply because its a Hyundai.... It is badge is BMW, it would be extremely successful.

Your POV is correct. You are right to say that why pple spend money on something worse because of it badge. However, thats not how the world works.
 
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wseroyer

wseroyer

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If people are still buying Marantz and it is a profitable brand (no idea if it is or not) then it is still sensible to keep making and selling it. I think in some markets Marantz still has more brand recognition than Denon and some see it as a more desirable brand.

I totally understand that people have the perception that Marantz is more high end, but is it really? I don't think it is, therefore I don't understand the reason why it needs to exist it's Denon with lipstick.
 
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wseroyer

wseroyer

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Just to add. Google for Hyundai Genesis. Hyundao tried very hard to create a car to rival the BMW. On the techical side, they succeeded. All the test results etc... But it ultimately failed. Simply because its a Hyundai.... It is badge is BMW, it would be extremely successful.

Your POV is correct. You are right to say that why people spend money on something worse because of it badge. However, thats not how the world works.

Hyundai spun Genesis off into its own brand and their cars look very nice, they did not fail. I get your point, but I do feel that BMW's and Mercedes are truly different from GM because they aren't the same company, i've owned a lot of BMW's and beleve me they are all unrealable piles of crap made from the most brittle plastic known to man, but nothing feels like a BMW, their steering and sold confident feel at speed is unmatched in the automotive world "till they started using electric power steering". Many Marantz products are literally Denon AVR's in a different case and with a toroidal transformer

https://www.genesis.com/us/en/genesis.html

Marantz SR6015
marantz sr6015.jpg


Denon AVR-x3700h
denon-avr-x3700h-5.jpg
 

escksu

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Hyundai spun Genesis off into its own brand and their cars look very nice, they did not fail. I get your point, but I do feel that BMW's and Mercedes are truly different from GM because they aren't the same company, i've owned a lot of BMW's and beleve me they are all unrealable piles of crap made from the most brittle plastic known to man, but nothing feels like a BMW, their steering and sold confident feel at speed is unmatched in the automotive world "till they started using electric power steering". Many Marantz products are literally Denon AVR's in a different case and with a toroidal transformer

Sam://www.genesis.com/us/en/genesis.html

Marantz SR6015
View attachment 146225

Denon AVR-x3700h
View attachment 146226

Utilizing same designs is part and parcel of product streamlining. again, in automobile industry. Its constantly done with cars utilizng the same plaform and even engines. Even in household appliances, eg. Refrigerators. Only the door differs.

If you want to go a step further, same product in the same factory with different brand labels. OEM and ODM.

Btw, its also country related. Certain brands may be more popular in certain countries and distribution related requirement etc... Need to remember that these 2 brands used to be different and lokely have different distributors and support in some countries.

I can tell you it has little to do with technical pov and mostly on marketing and consumer pov. You may want to look up more on marketing and consumer behaviour related articles to know more. Its hard to explain everything here.
 

escksu

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Hyundai spun Genesis off into its own brand and their cars look very nice, they did not fail. I get your point, but I do feel that BMW's and Mercedes are truly different from GM because they aren't the same company, i've owned a lot of BMW's and beleve me they are all unrealable piles of crap made from the most brittle plastic known to man, but nothing feels like a BMW, their steering and sold confident feel at speed is unmatched in the automotive world "till they started using electric power steering". Many Marantz products are literally Denon AVR's in a different case and with a toroidal transformer

https://www.genesis.com/us/en/genesis.html

Marantz SR6015
View attachment 146225

Denon AVR-x3700h
View attachment 146226

Regarding genesis, they had to because the model is constsntly associated with hyundai and sold through hyundai. So, they had to spin off and make it genesis. So pple will start to see it as genesis and not hyundai.
 
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