Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[Chrispy]

Are you specifically talking about the use of Trinnov software? Sometimes, there are other factors other than just sonic difference, sometimes they want control, sometimes they have certain requirements, sometimes it's cheaper, sometimes they think they can do it better. So it has to make business sense.

With this case, maybe they don't think they feel they can do better than Trinnov and if they tried, it may cost them too much and too long. Just like their model 10 uses Purifi.

Trinnov from my gleanings seems to be top of the heap on its own. You can do well with various Audssyey options. It's not really an audible thing in any case.

 

[Fidji]

I think you worry too much. Samsung is a civilised company and don't think they are involved it this transaction as relatively small for their balance sheet. Harman, I hope, understands the importance of D&M and need to entice them to go further. Arcam and JBL have staled for a while actually the expectation is for D&M to grow. Don't think that's a big problem which would not be resolved with a moderate R&D budget.

I am maybe too cynical. Maybe because my current job is "Fix this screwed acquisition from 2022". Never seen any M&A going according to plan, not in industry, In tech sector it is different story.

I agree - no x900 series until after it is a done deal and the chaos has settled down.... 18months? 2 years?

Disagree on ART - the work is already done, the Beta testing is well under way, and the product should be well nigh ready to go - will it need some final polishing and bug fixing - probably... but that is the nature of software.

Having that in the market, will give them something to market, upsell those who are currently on lower end AVR's, or older X700 and earlier models, and give them time to get the strategy for the next step in place.

I can agree with your re ART statement and its impact. It would definitely help upsell and everything.

And it is exactly why they should not do it - as all the extra cash will go to Masimo until transaction is closed. And is not only about cash - you do not want to enter any strategic agreements/decisions in this in-between period. Technically, Harman and Masimo are still competitors today, and it will remain so, until they get all the clearances from anti-trust authorities [which in very unlikely scenario can rule, that e.g Harman would be having monopoly on the all important market of AV receivers and can order them to sell Denon or open all the patents or whatever, or outright block the transaction].

This intermediate period in M&A transaction is very delicate - everybody knows, that is is going to happen and you will be one company, but you still need to pretend that you are competing and are taking independent decision. So Harman people are not allowed to be actively managing anything until the deal officially closes.

Is always quite complex - when we are talking e.g. ART and Dirac in broader terms - both of the companies have contract with Dirac but ARCAM cones with Dirac included and for D&M it is optional extra.

I might be absolutely wrong, and tomorrow we will see ART znd x900H announcement, but if I would be Harman and Masimo, I would refrain from doing anything that significantly changes value of the assets. And BTW this is why [I think] they did not release ART until now, as they did not want to do anything during the divestment process. 350 millions in cash is more important than couple of AV geeks. I think we are overestimating ART potential, I think most of D&M users do not care about DRC and run their Audyssey calibration in automatic mode and live happily ever after.

 

[PristineSound]

Trinnov from my gleanings seems to be top of the heap on its own. You can do well with various Audssyey options. It's not really an audible thing in any case.

Trinnov is pretty out of this world when I had the experience to listen to it. From what I've read, it's by far more advanced than any DSP room correction. But I'll let someone who knows DSP more than I comment on how Trinnov compared to other room correction. I used DIRAC.

 

[Chrispy]

Trinnov is pretty out of this world when I had the experience to listen to it. From what I've read, it's by far more advanced than any DSP room correction. But I'll let someone who knows DSP more than I comment on how Trinnov compared to other room correction. I used DIRAC.

Dirac could well be a contender (I only tried a 2ch version that I found meh) but depends what gear you already have I think.

 

[PristineSound]

Dirac could well be a contender (I only tried a 2ch version that I found meh) but depends what gear you already have I think.

I used DIRAC in 2 channels. I have excellent results. But my experience with Trinnov is better, then again, different room, different speakers, so not apple vs apple.

 

[Chrispy]

I used DIRAC in 2 channels. I have excellent results. But my experience with Trinnov is better, then again, different room, different speakers, so not apple vs apple.

All in just 2ch?

 

[PristineSound]

All in just 2ch?

Yes.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes.

Definitely meh

 

[PristineSound]

Definitely meh

Meh, because it's two channel? Or meh as in Trinnov is meh?

 

[Vacceo]

For the utilitarian, you simply cannot beat the Buckeye in performance and value. Buckeye would be an option for me, if I was building a home theater as I would not want to spend the extra money for luxury.

But this my friend is stunning luxury that I would spend the money on if money isn't a thing.
View attachment 449501View attachment 449502

Beyond the luxury build, you're also getting a state of the art amplification. Yes, you can get that performance for a lot less, but it is also true that you get a lot less performance for a lot more money with the high end scammers.

 

[DSJR]

I go back to when Arcam was A&R Cambridge, (Amplification and Recording Cambridge) started by John Dawson and Chris Evans who met as engineering students in Cambridge. Their first product was the A60 amplifier, a very decent 30 watts per channel stereo amplifier, but modestly priced. They were never considered High End, just well engineered decent products.

With the owners' retirement, the company got sold, and became just another brand, albeit even before then, manufacturing had moved to Asia.

Much as happened to Musical Fidelity (Antony Michaelson) and Quad (Peter, then Ross Walker) Just names on a brand roster.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

S.

I seem to recall Chris Evans did work for NAD (I believe the forerunners of the much respected lower priced 'conventional' models) as he left A&R first and then started Myryad, the MI-120 integrated amp an excellent product kind-of taking over the mid-priced-integrated amp mantle. Make today, it'd be around a grand in UK money and $1500? in US currency

 

[thcdru2k]

A little bit of cognitive sunk cost bias going around. People drop a lot on gear and assume it has to sound better. But it really comes down to how well your system actually plays sound.

Room correction can help, but if your expensive speakers already have a voice, are you fixing the room or ruining the speaker? Are you working with the space or fighting it?

Does your bass breathe and linger or just slam with no texture? Is your midbass tight and clean or just muddy pressure?

I’ll take a system tuned by ear for real music over one chasing a perfect graph any day. That said, if anyone’s got a spare Trinnov lying around, I’ll take it.

 

[Oddball]

A little bit of cognitive sunk cost bias going around. People drop a lot on gear and assume it has to sound better. But it really comes down to how well your system actually plays sound.

A case of diminishing returns has been often made and it is true. But then again, it you drop $$$,$$$ it will still sound better than $$,$$$, provided you know what you are doing.

Room correction can help, but if your expensive speakers already have a voice, are you fixing the room or ruining the speaker? Are you working with the space or fighting it?

You need room correction. Period. At least for the low end. There is discussion and preference as to how you use it and if it should be extended to full range, or at what point it should be disengaged.

Does your bass breathe and linger or just slam with no texture? Is your midbass tight and clean or just muddy pressure?

It is really a matter of what you have under the hood and how well you tuned it. I can say that my bass line is doing really well. Probably not as well as the cost for it, but hey, it is only money. Might be able to get value at lower price for sure.

I’ll take a system tuned by ear for real music over one chasing a perfect graph any day. That said, if anyone’s got a spare Trinnov lying around, I’ll take it.

Graphs matter. Between the solid looking graphs, I agree that preference kicks in.

 

[thcdru2k]

A case of diminishing returns has been often made and it is true. But then again, it you drop $$$,$$$ it will still sound better than $$,$$$, provided you know what you are doing.

You need room correction. Period. At least for the low end. There is discussion and preference as to how you use it and if it should be extended to full range, or at what point it should be disengaged.

It is really a matter of what you have under the hood and how well you tuned it. I can say that my bass line is doing really well. Probably not as well as the cost for it, but hey, it is only money. Might be able to get value at lower price for sure.

Graphs matter. Between the solid looking graphs, I agree that preference kicks in.

Agreed but we’ve all seen expensive speakers set up wrong with bad spacing or no toe-in. Low-end correction is essential but I think phase-aligned waveform summation is the right way. Any system with multiple subs benefits from MiniDSP.

Midbass is the hardest to get right. Most people mess up the crossover between subs and mains, especially if they’re relying on room correction alone.

Placement, calibration, and timing can make a mid-tier setup beat a high-end one running auto. Graphs matter, but only if you know what you’re looking at. Auto is best when it barely has to do anything, like with expensive gear in a treated room so yes I agree with you $$$,$$$ in the right hands wins hands down. But a lot of times $$$,$$$ expects their room correction to fix everything.

 

[dlaloum]

I mean it's not like you can just whip up something better than the most advanced AV processor ever made. Throw in patents and decades of development on their software platform, it was clearly a smart move by Harman to license it.

Harman had a world leading team from Lexicon - they sacked them!

Then when it came time to integrate the subsequent generations of AVR/AVP's they were stuffed.... hence the never-ending history of bugs ever since! - Let alone the almost total absence of R&D in the AV space.

So yeah, they don't have much choice other than going out and buying it in from someone else - their own in-house tech is now heading towards 30 years old, and in that time there has been no serious development.

Of course D&M have never been an R&D house in that sense - they were always integrators, engineers, manufacturers.

So the purchase of Sound United, won't resolve the issue - it merely perpetuates it, as they get even more integrators, engineers, and manufacturers, and still no R&D.

Now with SU, they will have the perpetual exclusive licence to Audyssey to add to their "quiver" - but also worthy of note, Audyssey basically lost interest in the product after they concluded the licence deal with SU.... Only the user interface has received (substantial) updates over the last 15 years or so.... there has been no R&D there to develop it further.

Which isn't to say I disagree with your comment @amira - yes smart move getting what is considered the best in todays market, and using it for the exclusive flagship.... it is just sad when you look at the potential that was there, and was simply discarded.

 

[Chrispy]

Meh, because it's two channel? Or meh as in Trinnov is meh?

2ch. Trinnov by most accounts is quite good.

 

[PristineSound]

2ch. Trinnov by most accounts is quite good.

Well, not everyone have the space for multi channel, nor are there many multi channel music available.

 

[Chrispy]

Well, not everyone have the space for multi channel, nor are there many multi channel music available.

True, but there's more than music to consider in my case. I grew up with 2ch, prefer multich now (and have several multich systems)....have a decent collection of multich music as well as movies, too.

 

[just1n]

Well, not everyone have the space for multi channel, nor are there many multi channel music available.

There’s a lot of multichannel/Atmos music out there. But agree that multiple speaker environments are hare to make work physically and aesthetically

 

[dlaloum]

True, but there's more than music to consider in my case. I grew up with 2ch, prefer multich now (and have several multich systems)....have a decent collection of multich music as well as movies, too.

Poked my head in my sons room yesterday, set him up with a basic WiiM Streamer and a pair of PBS Intro bookshelves... honestly it sounds remarkably good, basic stereo, no EQ.... (and a heck of a lot better than what I had at his age!!)

Yes the "main" system goes deeper, is multichannel, runs Dirac - but....