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Denon AVR crossover doesn't seem to work for main speakers

csepulv

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My Denon AVR seems to ignore any crossover settings and sends full spectrum signals to my front speakers no matter my settings.

I have an old Denon AVR 3808ci. I recently bought a pair of SVS SB1000 subwoofers and planned to integrate them with my front tower speakers.

I was going to use MSO and a miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate the subwoofers, using the Denon LFE as input to the miniDSP.

Furthermore, I was going to start with NOT using the front tower speakers for bass, at least initially, to simplify my learning curve using MSO.

In the Denon, I have the following settings:
* front speakers to small
* crossover at 90Hz
* subwoofer to LFE+main

However, I noticed bass still coming out of the front speakers (when running sweeps in REW). I shutoff the subwoofer completely, but left the settings noted above in the AVR. I expected little/no bass from the front speakers, but no matter what settings I put in the Denon, I get the same frequency response as if there was no crossover set.

I've tried direct mode and stereo mode with no EQ (in case the processor needs to be engaged). I've set the crossover to 250Hz, tried LFE (not LFE+main), large speakers, etc. -- all combos I could try.

No matter what I do, the front speakers output same FR, starting around 30Hz.
As an example, this is the REW weep from 0-200 Hz.
1641002538435.png


Am I crazy? I would love this to be user error, but my understanding is that with a speaker setting of "small", the crossover setting would cut the bass frequencies going to the front speakers (with some rolloff).

Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
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csepulv

csepulv

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That's why.
Are you saying I should be using "LFE" (and not LFE+main)? If so, I had already tried that and I just double checked: using LFE as subwoofer setting has no effect on the bass output of the main speakers (they still produce same FR)
 

AdamG247

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Are you saying I should be using "LFE" (and not LFE+main)? If so, I had already tried that and I just double checked: using LFE as subwoofer setting has no effect on the bass output of the main speakers (they still produce same FR)
When you are testing are you in two channel mode? There is a 2 channel mode setting that is separate. Look in Setup menu, Speakers, Manual Setup, 2ch playback at bottom. I think your AVR should be the same.
 

Golfx

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Post this same question on audioholics and signal @ShadyJ.
 

radix

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When listening to stereo, have mode did you select? It's the red button on the remote called "music." I think I had to set it to "multichannel" to get the sub going. I've still a Denon novice though.
 

peng

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My Denon AVR seems to ignore any crossover settings and sends full spectrum signals to my front speakers no matter my settings.

I have an old Denon AVR 3808ci. I recently bought a pair of SVS SB1000 subwoofers and planned to integrate them with my front tower speakers.

I was going to use MSO and a miniDSP 2x4 HD to integrate the subwoofers, using the Denon LFE as input to the miniDSP.

Furthermore, I was going to start with NOT using the front tower speakers for bass, at least initially, to simplify my learning curve using MSO.

In the Denon, I have the following settings:
* front speakers to small
* crossover at 90Hz
* subwoofer to LFE+main

However, I noticed bass still coming out of the front speakers (when running sweeps in REW). I shutoff the subwoofer completely, but left the settings noted above in the AVR. I expected little/no bass from the front speakers, but no matter what settings I put in the Denon, I get the same frequency response as if there was no crossover set.

I've tried direct mode and stereo mode with no EQ (in case the processor needs to be engaged). I've set the crossover to 250Hz, tried LFE (not LFE+main), large speakers, etc. -- all combos I could try.

No matter what I do, the front speakers output same FR, starting around 30Hz.
As an example, this is the REW weep from 0-200 Hz.
View attachment 175849

Am I crazy? I would love this to be user error, but my understanding is that with a speaker setting of "small", the crossover setting would cut the bass frequencies going to the front speakers (with some rolloff).

Any help is greatly appreciated.

When you did the sweep, did you turn off the subwoofer or set it to none? If not, the bass you see in the FR would have been from the subwoofer.
 
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csepulv

csepulv

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When you are testing are you in two channel mode? There is a 2 channel mode setting that is separate. Look in Setup menu, Speakers, Manual Setup, 2ch playback at bottom. I think your AVR should be the same.
I am testing in 2 channel mode. I am connecting a DDRC24 to my computer and using that to generate REW sweeps. The DDRC24 connects to CD input on the Denon.

I had also tried the 2 channel settings, as pictured below.
1641006931527.png

1641006954396.png


I just tried again and both produce an identical sweep (sub is powered off)
1641007018925.png


As noted, I can change the crossover values and they have no effect.

It makes me wonder if there might be something wrong with the AVR itself.
 
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csepulv

csepulv

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When you did the sweep, did you turn off the subwoofer or set it to none? If not, the bass you see in the FR would have been from the subwoofer.
In all my testing, the subwoofer is powered off (but still enabled in Denon AVR settings)
 

flyzipper

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Is there something specific to your CD input that's interfering?

On a Yamaha AVR, running that input in Pure Direct mode would bypass the DSP and manifest this way, but not sure about Denon.

You wrote, "I've tried direct mode and stereo mode with no EQ (in case the processor needs to be engaged)", but you might need a mode that's using the DSP in order for bass management to properly function, so ensure those modes do.
 
Last edited:

-Matt-

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I have noticed a similar, possibly related, anomaly in the Audyssey MultEQ app (on android)...

If you edit the crossovers in the "speaker detection results" page and then view the target curves in the "curve editor" page; the target curves do not update to reflect changes in the crossover values. For me, the target for the front speakers remains full range, even when manually set to small and no matter what the crossover setting is. (Because the automatic speaker detection labelled them as large during the Audyssey measurements). The targets for centre and surround channels do appear to include high pass filters for crossover with subs; however, these also do not change when the crossover values in the "speaker detection results" page are edited.

It would be good if others with Denon AVRs and Audyssey app can confirm this unexpected behavior. (Or explain why it should be so).
 
Last edited:
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csepulv

csepulv

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I might have figured out what is going on. User error, confusing documentation and an expected crossover rolloff seems to be the explanation.

Following @Golfx's suggestion, I did some searching and sifting on Audioholics. I found the following post about the Denon 3808:
Key line:
The key functional difference for most setups is that, when in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the speakers are treated as large regardless of how you set things up in the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu.
While I had tested Stereo mode (with EQ off), the crossover rolloff in the Denon is very gradual and I didn't pay enough attention to the results.
So if I compare Direct (green) to Stereo with 90Hz crossover (blue), I get this

1641085675491.png


But if I change crossover to 250hz, I get this (brown is Stereo x250Hz, green is Direct)
1641085748329.png


So I think my error was seeing graphs that looked too similar and assuming the crossover wasn't working.

But as noted, the crossover is really gradual. If I put a 90hz crossover (48db slope) in the DDRC, I get this
(Denon blue, minidsp brown)
1641085983913.png

I was looking for a similar graph with Denon crossover.

You have to set the Denon crossover to 250Hz to get a similar rolloff to the minidsp at 90hz.
(minidsp brown, denon x250Hz red, denon x90Hz blue, direct green)
1641086463140.png

Maybe 200Hz would work in the Denon.

Thanks again to @Golfx for the Audioholics suggestion.
 

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Golfx

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I might have figured out what is going on. User error, confusing documentation and an expected crossover rolloff seems to be the explanation.

Following @Golfx's suggestion, I did some searching and sifting on Audioholics. I found the following post about the Denon 3808:
Key line:

While I had tested Stereo mode (with EQ off), the crossover rolloff in the Denon is very gradual and I didn't pay enough attention to the results.
So if I compare Direct (green) to Stereo with 90Hz crossover (blue), I get this

View attachment 176052

But if I change crossover to 250hz, I get this (brown is Stereo x250Hz, green is Direct)
View attachment 176053

So I think my error was seeing graphs that looked too similar and assuming the crossover wasn't working.

But as noted, the crossover is really gradual. If I put a 90hz crossover (48db slope) in the DDRC, I get this
(Denon blue, minidsp brown)
View attachment 176055
I was looking for a similar graph with Denon crossover.

You have to set the Denon crossover to 250Hz to get a similar rolloff to the minidsp at 90hz.
(minidsp brown, denon x250Hz red, denon x90Hz blue, direct green)
View attachment 176058
Maybe 200Hz would work in the Denon.

Thanks again to @Golfx for the Audioholics suggestion.
You are welcome.
 

witwald

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But as noted, the crossover is really gradual. If I put a 90hz crossover (48db slope) in the DDRC
The typical high-pass filter in an AVR is a 2nd-order, 12dB/octave Butterworth filter topology. It is relatively gradual in its roll off, while the AVR's low-pass filter would be a 4th-order, 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley filter topology.
 

deprogrammed

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Can confirm. I just put in a new Denon receiver that replaced a Marantz. Direct bypasses everything. The Marantz had pure direct that also shut off the display and turned off the video part. Straight no chaser. I guess to appease the "audiophiles". And then ironically useful for the objectivist using DSP.
Tip I just learned. Hit the Info button on the remote it will tell you if Audyssey is on and how many channels are are going in and how many speakers are used for the output. RTFM. Kidding, it isn't the most user friendly "manual".

I don't know Tod, but when I use pure direct the soundstage widens. And there is more shimmer on the cymbals.
 
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csepulv

csepulv

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The typical high-pass filter in an AVR is a 2nd-order, 12dB/octave Butterworth filter topology. It is relatively gradual in its roll off, while the AVR's low-pass filter would be a 4th-order, 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley filter topology.
Thanks for the info. This does seem to match what I see in the graphs. It makes sub integration a little trickier, as I will need to account for the front speaker bass. I think MSO will integrate with main speaker readings, but I need to experiment and learn a bit about MSO. (sub integration started me down this rabbit hole.)
 

witwald

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I don't know Tod, but when I use pure direct the soundstage widens. And there is more shimmer on the cymbals.
In a recent review of a Denon AVR, I noted that the measurements indicated that Pure Direct mode changed the output level slightly. This would be enough to lead to the subjective experience that you have encountered.
 
Last edited:

RichT

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Hello and yes I have a denon avr too. Does it matter if the front speakers are set to "large" or "small" for the crossover to activate? Also are you recommending 200Hz for the crossover to get the effect that you want? Thanks
 
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csepulv

csepulv

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@RichT I think you need to do BOTH of
  • use small speakers setting
  • set mode to something other than DIRECT/PURE DIRECT. Stereo without EQ is fine, for example
I happen to set crossover high, i.e. 200Hz, to get the rolloff I wanted. But you should probably experiment

Furthermore, when listening to music, the subwoofer will only get a signal of subwoofer mode is set to "LFE+Main". If LFE only, then the subwoofer only gets LFE effects (like in Dolby or DTS)
 
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