Denafrips Ares II - is it really worth it?

[Ja1man]

I had the Denafrips Ares II in my systems and I could not hear any difference as compared to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS, Topping D10, Allo Boss2 player and the DAC in the Hegel H120...

This seems highly unlikely. Most people I have talked to can tell the difference between the RME and denafrips, even in a blind test.

 

[Ja1man]

At first I really thought it sounded better than the other DACs. But after some A/B tests, I could no longer tell any difference. By the way, I bought the Denafrips because of a YouTube video. The reviewer described the Denafrips so enthusiastically that I really wanted to try it out. Well, the result was rather sobering....

Accurately, minimal noise/distortion.

Not "warm" or whatever.
[...How would DAC filters give that impression[?] ("Rhetorical." I don't really care, whether it might or not; I'm not into impressions like that.)


Internet audiophile mythology AKA social psychology stuff.
Old-school and digital is not a good idea.
(How would it be, logically?...The best you could do is suggesting that the only reason that most/99% of DACs are delta-sigma is that the manufacturing cost of R2R is so much more. ...Show me the data, evidence.)


The result can be even more sobering when you realise what's actually going on with audiophile reviewers and forums, iow "community," "community marketing."

R2R has no quantization noise and is the only DAC system capable of being true NOS.

 

[mansr]

Uh-huh.

 

[kchap]

R2R has no quantization noise and is the only DAC system capable of being true NOS.

All DACs must be be subject to quantising noise. To paraphrase Scotty: "You can't change the laws of physics".

The Denafrips Ares II is one of the few R2R DACs that does oversample: Denafrips Review. BTW, this was first pointed out by GoldenSound: GoldenSound Denafrips Review

 

[BDWoody]

This seems highly unlikely. Most people I have talked to can tell the difference between the RME and denafrips, even in a blind test.

So they claim.

No evidence yet...imagine that.

Don't just go into it brainwashed that all dacs sound the same.

It's more about understanding than brainwashing.

 

[KeithPhantom]

R2R has no quantization noise

Because discrete sampling of a continuous waveform is perfect, right?

 

[Geomancer1115]

I started my setup with a Laptop that stored my ALAC and FLAC music collection, connected to a Klipsch Fives via Bluetooth, then i considered to add a DAC which i bought a ARES II since theres alot of reviews and rave about it, the sound coming out of my powered speakers changed immediately its like night and day that time i immediately knew that DACS work, immediately i was happy with my quite expensive purchase and later on added a pre-amp in to compliment the ARES II, which also further improved the quality of the sound, so in my humble opinion i can say that DACs can really contribute the quality of the sound output and can therefore can enjoy the music even more which is the main goal of all these craziness.

 

[Veri]

The Denafrips Ares II is one of the few R2R DACs that does oversample: Denafrips Review.

Erm. Any DAC should oversample, NOS option available or not. What are these 'R2R DACs that don't oversample'? I can think of designs purposely not placing an oversampling chip. I can think of Holo MAY that omitted the AKM OS chip because it is no longer available since the fire. But generally any decent DAC will filter to prevent artifacts in the audible band, imaging/aliasing, ..

R2R DAC does not equal non oversampling, it has nothing to do with each other. So no that statement sounds false. Besides, all Denafrips DACs have the OS option no? This isn't something Ares ii exclusive..

 

[kchap]

Erm. Any DAC should oversample, NOS option available or not.

Agree, common sense says: "Oversample and do the reconstruction filter in the digital domain" however, it is not mandatory. The first generation of 16bit DACs in CD players did not oversample and the reconstruction filters were analogue. The exception was Philips/Marantz which had a 14bit DAC. Oversampling with digital filtering and noise shaping was used to restore 16bit resolution.

What are these 'R2R DACs that don't oversample'?

My understanding is most of them, or at least at least an NOS option. That is the big selling point for R2R ladder DACs.

There are two parts to this; 1) the actual D to A Conversion which needs to be done at the I/C sample rate and 2) The reconstruction filter which would need to be done in the analogue domain. This is where things get more confusing. Most people think NOS means not having a reconstruction filter. To fully commit the R2R myth most manufacturers have either no filter at all or an ineffective filter when in NOS mode. This is of cause course complete rubbish.

Edited.

 

[Veri]

My understanding is most of them [...] or at least at least an NOS option.

And well, I think that's false. Holo spring 1/2 have OS via an AKM AK4137. Airist R2R has OS filtering. Denafrips have OS filtering. Schiit multibit ones have filtering. Philips TDA chips usually come with something like an SAA7220 to oversample. I'm coming up short with R2R DACs that patently don't have OS, I mean the Holo spring 3 and MAY come to mind but that's because the AKM chip is no longer sold in the first place. I can't find any example really except for boutique NOS products that target 'special' audiophiles

 

[kchap]

And well, I think that's false. Holo spring 1/2 have OS via an AKM AK4137. Airist R2R has OS filtering. Denafrips have OS filtering. Schiit multibit ones have filtering. Philips TDA chips usually come with something like an SAA7220 to oversample. I'm coming up short with R2R DACs that patently don't have OS, I mean the Holo spring 3 and MAY come to mind but that's because the AKM chip is no longer sold in the first place. I can't find any example really except for boutique NOS products that target 'special' audiophiles

Well to claim moral victory; the Sony CDP 101 The Kitsune web site claims the Holo Spring 1/2/3 support NOS. I did try and find a manual for the Airist but gave up. I'm not saying they do not have OS options but most of these exotic, overpriced and underperforming R2R DACs make a big deal of supporting NOS. Their target is the 'special' audiophile. If they do not make that claim there is reason to be in the market.

 

[mansr]

Agree, common sense says: "Oversample and do the reconstruction filter in the digital domain" however, it is not mandatory. The first generation of 16bit DACs in CD players did not oversample and the reconstruction filters were analogue. The exception was Philips/Marantz which had a 14bit DAC. Oversampling with digital filtering and noise shaping was used to restore 16bit resolution.

When the CD format was launched, there were exactly two players available, the Sony CDP-101 that did not oversample and the Philips CD100 that did. Marantz and some others sold rebadged Philips players. A few models later, Sony was oversampling, while Philips moved to 16-bit DACs, still oversampling. All these DACs where some variation of an R2R design. Delta-sigma DACs didn't show up until some time in the 1990s, often promoted as "1-bit" or "bitstream."

An oddity that exists in today's audiophool market is DACs touted as NOS that still use oversampling delta-sigma converters, just without digital interpolation.

 

[Mart68]

Technics brought out MASH in 1989 or 1990, can't recall if Bitstream came on the market earlier or late than that but I think Bitstream was first.

 

[mansr]

Technics brought out MASH in 1989 or 1990, can't recall if Bitstream came on the market earlier or late than that but I think Bitstream was first.

MASH is a specific type of delta-sigma modulator (though they could of course be referring to something else). As with any other 1-bit modulator, the output can be reasonably described as a bitstream.

 

[rudy]

i have Ares ll and find it to be very natural sounding. i have played in orchestras. the timbre of instruments are spot on imho. i have played just about every major Grand in the world. the weight and authority and harmonic decay of the piano is very convincing. i realize that not everyone has a musicians ears. my musical journey started at a very young age however and was encouraged by a parents who where music lovers.

 

[Veri]

i have Ares ll and find it to be very natural sounding. i have played in orchestras. the timbre of instruments are spot on imho. i have played just about every major Grand in the world. the weight and authority and harmonic decay of the piano is very convincing. i realize that not everyone has a musicians ears.

Pfft. Look. If the Ares II somehow sounds different than other excellent DACs, it is using some hidden DSP to alter the sound. The 0s and 1s don't get to sound better / more natural / more open without any good reason. That's not how digital to analog conversion works. It's not rocket science. And it's not witchcraft.

 

[rudy]

Pfft. Look. If the Ares II somehow sounds different than other excellent DACs, it is using some hidden DSP to alter the sound. The 0s and 1s don't get to sound better / more natural / more open without any good reason. That's not how digital to analog conversion works. It's not rocket science. And it's not witchcraft.

i trust my ears. i have devoted my life to music, more than the casual listener. i would like to hear from other musicians. i spend perhaps 8 hrs. a day playing or listening to music not to equipment.

 

[Snoopy]

i trust my ears. i have devoted my life to music, more than the casual listener. i would like to hear from other musicians. i spend perhaps 8 hrs. a day playing or listening to music not to equipment.

So amirm could stop using his expensive equipment, sell it and hire you and your ears to do the measurements

Maybe LG measures their displays with some dudes eyes that devoted his life to watching movies.. who knows.

 

[rudy]

i still read reviews but only as a guide. my ears have the final say. lots of stuff gets good reviews, but upon actually hearing it can be quite disappointing. i have only bought one piece of equipment on spec after it received many favorable reviews. that was the Zen Stream. sounded great but it kept crashing. poor software design. like many, i returned it. i think iFi is doing some mumbo jumbo with noise suppression that is quite effective. i would like to see Amir measure it. other aspects of great sounding audio equipment could be beyond our current science and therefore ineffable.

 

[gjpmho]

+1 vote for the Denafrips Ares 2 is definitely great bang for the buck. My DAC progression: Schiit Bifrost(for 1 year) Schiit Bifrost + Uber (for 3 years), Schiit Bifrost 2 (for 2 weeks), Denafrips Ares 2 (1+ years). I can't think of anything missing with the Ares 2 "sound" in my setup. It is complete to my ears. IMO, there is an incredible amount of snake oil and subjectivity in the audiophile business, which is revealing about psychoacoustics... For me the bottom line is you know you have found the audio setup you're looking for when you forget about the components (they accumulate dust!) and enjoy the music.
My setup:
Mac Mini ->Toslink->Denafrips Ares II->Creek Audio Destiny->Wharfedale Diamond 10.7