DAC types and their sonic signature

[Calexico]

@SIY
We see on this interesting thread by @Blumlein 88 the ultrasonic noise:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/0minus4-18i20-png.8053/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ise-clipping-and-upsampling-dac-effects.1835/

Do you think those ultrasonics can be negative?
Why not making tests like this for all dac for cd and high res quality?

Maybe i'm wrong i don't know.

What i'm sure is that multibit dacs won't have so much noise. (Maybe one good point for lot of bad points you will say...)

 

[Xulonn]

My expectations have been met.

Hey SIY, are you another retired audio enthusiast following this morbidly fascinating compulsive display of classic Duning-Kruger type ignorance combined with a profound unwillingness to learn about the science and technology involved?

This thread contains some of the most idiotic and illogical claims about audio that I have ever seen. It's hard to believe that someone thinks that something that has not been proven to be audible in proper double blind testing - nor observed in the measurements in the frequency range of human hearing - can be very clearly heard by them in subjective, non-level matched sighted listening.

There seems to be an absolute rejection of the repeatedly proven fallibility of sighted listening and the necessity for proper level matching in any listening comparisons. The claim that some people have "no choice except to trust their ears [in sighted and uncontrolled listening sessions]" is patently untrue. Any reasonably intellegent and informed person, with only a bit of technical skills, can at least attempt to perform single blind, properly level matched listening. Those who refuse to do so likely fear that the results will not support the BS they have been spouting.

And now, the science and engineering folks here at ASR from Amir on down are being accused of lying?

 

[solderdude]

@SIY
We see on this interesting thread by @Blumlein 88 the ultrasonic noise:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/0minus4-18i20-png.8053/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ise-clipping-and-upsampling-dac-effects.1835/

Do you think those ultrasonics can be negative?
Why not making tests like this for all dac for cd and high res quality?

Maybe i'm wrong i don't know.

What i'm sure is that multibit dacs won't have so much noise. (Maybe one good point for lot of bad points you will say...)

Do you realise what the actual levels of the noise are ?
Do you realise that your tweeter won't reproduce and your ears don't hear it ?
Where are you able to conclude that this noise folds back into the audio part and makes DS sound poor (at least 'pure DS'?)
DSD is allowed to have much more noise and sounds good ?

And it's not 'maybe' ... we do know

 

[Sparky]

Yep, with DACs measurements tell it all. There is one proviso, and that is that many are excellent and do not sound any different from eacht other. I doubt the RME will sound different from the Oppo, once you have controlled the conditions like very careful level matching (impossible without an accurate multi meter to measure voltage) and blind near instantaneous comparison. Similarly, I doubt that under these conditiosn you can actually hear any difference between using the DAC in the Oppo and using the DAC in the amplifier.

Hi Willem.

I originally went for the Schiit DAC's, Gungnir I think it's called and after a Google search, this site popped up which led me on to amirm's measurements.
That's when everything I thought I knew went out of the window!
The Schiit range seemed to be getting almost god-like praise and, after watching some YouTube reviews, I was convinced I needed it.
The measurements don't seem to echo reality though and, although you can't rely on measuring alone, I feel it does give a good indication of not only build quality but software/hardware integration.

I watched a few of their "build" videos and I wasn't impressed at all. I was shocked at their attitude towards their work. There was one guy using an impact drill to screw screws into position but he had the torque setting too high.
Every single screw was almost being threaded and it put me off.
As an electrician, I understand quality of workmanship and they just didn't seem bothered.

Anyway, your comment on the "type" of sound.... I personally, although I couldn't clarify the level matching, felt the sound from the OPPO was almost vinyl like in its presentation.
It took me by surprise to be honest.
I can no longer check this though as I have upgraded the PSU to a linear toroidal which cancels out the analogue stage.

Again, I'm open to constructive criticism and am willing to learn so fire away.

 

[Sparky]

It seems in my absence, a fight has broken out..

 

[Sparky]

Good DACs are good DACs, whether it is burr brown, ess sabre, akm, ti, cirrus logic, ... The whole 'velvet sound' thing is imo just a marketing differentiator which is pretty smart too, if there's so many brands you need to try and appeal to the customer.

If anything, going through 'velvet sound' ADC> 'velvet sound' DAC there seems to be a roll-off/modulating going on (the monoprice THX desktop DAC uses both adc and dac chips from AKM when using line-in which is what I'm basing this on). Otherwise, there is zero showing of something special about velvet sound AKM DACs here in the testing reports.

Yes, I agree on this. Every brand needs a "hook" so to speak and "velvet sound" is just another marketing gimmick but surely there must be at least something to it.

I've just learnt of a "ladder DAC".... R2R??

A series of resistors which........ I was going to try to explain it but I just don't know enough.

Surely this method WILL introduce a specific sound signature???

 

[Sparky]

Thanks to @amirm ,this is not impossible anymore. With ASR measurements we know how several units provide the same amount of voltage or how to adjust them to get regular 2V or 4V.

You taught me the other day how to adjust for voltage in the RME. Yes, you're right....

 

[JJB70]

Of all the parts of the audio chain I think the DAC must be the one for which audible transparency is available for the lowest price. Unless you need the esoteric features of some of the professional models by companies like RME I would honestly question whether most people even need to buy a separate DAC if their device has a half decent onboard DAC. Unless a DAC is purposefully designed to signed different or just badly implemented most sound the same to my ears, certainly I think any audible differences are minor indeed next to speakers, speaker placement or headphones. That said, clearly some measure better than others and I can understand the attraction of models from companies like RME and Benchmark that represent state of the art measurement and design.

 

[Sparky]

To me i hear differences between dacs and i'm pretty exigent about the rendering. When i don't like sound of a dac (event if it measures good) i cannot enjoy music.
Scientists here think it's in my mind.
If you enjoy the dac you bought don't think too much.
If you something doesn't please you in the sound maybe go to a shop and try different dacs.
Me i got a tube buffer that made the measurements far less good jut i enjoy the music far better.

You bought a tube buffer?? Does that induce distortion to colour the sound then?

 

[Sparky]

The contribution of these measurements is that they show you how close to perfection a unit is. If it is better than human hearing acuity, fine, you do not need to spend more. Since electronics by and large are very good now, such measurements are useful to distinguish the mediocre or good from the perfect.
With speakers it is a different story. Measurements will reveal their imperfections (they invariably have many), and that may help to distinguish the chaff from the wheat, but it is up to you and your own listening to decide which remaining compromise you dislike least.

Never a truer statement said...

 

[Calexico]

Do you realise what the actual levels of the noise are ?
Do you realise that your tweeter won't reproduce and your ears don't hear it ?
Where are you able to conclude that this noise folds back into the audio part and makes DS sound poor (at least 'pure DS'?)
DSD is allowed to have much more noise and sounds good ?

And it's not 'maybe' ... we do know

To me dsd sounds very very bad.

 

[SIY]

Of all the parts of the audio chain I think the DAC must be the one for which audible transparency is available for the lowest price.

Under ten dollars!

 

[Sparky]

Of all the parts of the audio chain I think the DAC must be the one for which audible transparency is available for the lowest price. Unless you need the esoteric features of some of the professional models by companies like RME I would honestly question whether most people even need to buy a separate DAC if their device has a half decent onboard DAC. Unless a DAC is purposefully designed to signed different or just badly implemented most sound the same to my ears, certainly I think any audible differences are minor indeed next to speakers, speaker placement or headphones. That said, clearly some measure better than others and I can understand the attraction of models from companies like RME and Benchmark that represent state of the art measurement and design.

The thing that interests me most about the RME is its parametric EQ.
I use DIRAC for movies and its amazing what it is capable of. I don't have the biggest lounge so room modes are an issue in particular with the low end but DIRAC completely irons that out so the boomy bass is gone.
I'm not saying that the RME is capable of doing what DIRAC can do but, with the EQ settings available, it will certainly help tame any low end issues I may have.
I feel its numerous options and settings are something I could make good use of plus, it measured fantastically well which confirms good engineering and with their continued updates, you feel you're being looked after.

 

[solderdude]

To me dsd sounds very very bad.

It MUST be the ultrasonic noise then... I guess you were correct after all.

But what about the 3 questions above the DSD part ?

 

[Calexico]

You bought a tube buffer?? Does that induce distortion to colour the sound then?

I don't know about the distortion it introduces.
i bought the cheap fx tube buffer but i changed the psu with a linear one and put on some russian tubes.
I hear that depending on the position on volume knob there is more or less distortion. So i put at the sweet spot to my hear and i enjoy the music.
I have to say it works good with my dac board ak4490 that has minimal output stage with only low pass filter. (Only one opa that i changed for a one i ve chosen with my ears).
My ears or my fooled brain detected differences between different op amps.
With my cd player that has more complex stage with more opamps it doesn't work as good maybe because there is already an amp.
With a es9023 direct output it works good too but i don't like the rythm of this DAC.
(Smsl sd 192 pro)

 

[Sparky]

Never heard DSD so couldn't comment....

 

[Calexico]

It MUST be the ultrasonic noise then... I guess you were correct after all.

But what about the 3 questions above the DSD part ?

On the other thread someone talked about imd that can lead to new freq in the audible range.
Also We should check datasheets of every components to see how they react to ultrasonic noise.
It's the same pb with switching psu that put noise on the audio signal. That's why people prefer linear ones because 50hz / 60hz is much more easy to filter to get a clean dc power

 

[Calexico]

@SIY bought my dac board 22€ and i'm very pleased

 

[Sparky]

I don't know about the distortion it introduces.
i bought the cheap fx tube buffer but i changed the psu with a linear one and put on some russian tubes.
I hear that depending on the position on volume knob there is more or less distortion. So i put at the sweet spot to my hear and i enjoy the music.
I have to say it works good with my dac board ak4490 that has minimal output stage with only low pass filter. (Only one opa that i changed for a one i ve chosen with my ears).
My ears or my fooled brain detected differences between different op amps.
With my cd player that has more complex stage with more opamps it doesn't work as good maybe because there is already an amp.
With a es9023 direct output it works good too but i don't like the rythm of this DAC.
(Smsl sd 192 pro)

When choosing my speakers, I heard them on a tube amp which was very pleasing on the ear.
I distinctly heard what I can only describe as "tape hiss" which was constant in the background.
The sales guy said he couldn't hear it but it was definitely there.
I think I know the sound you describe. I think it's all about trade-offs.
I couldn't comment on the ESS because I've never heard one.
I'm led to believe they are very analytical but again, it's all subjective so only the listener at that very moment in time can comment.
An hour later, another listener will hear something completely different.....

 

[Calexico]

When choosing my speakers, I heard them on a tube amp which was very pleasing on the ear.
I distinctly heard what I can only describe as "tape hiss" which was constant in the background.
The sales guy said he couldn't hear it but it was definitely there.
I think I know the sound you describe. I think it's all about trade-offs.
I couldn't comment on the ESS because I've never heard one.
I'm led to believe they are very analytical but again, it's all subjective so only the listener at that very moment in time can comment.
An hour later, another listener will hear something completely different.....

Maybe you listened to an old cd not remastered.
On old records i sometimes hear the tape also and with tube buffer i find it more easy to hear.
With modern record i do not hear any tape hiss.
With classical it's very good. With rock drums are kicking guitars are cutting cymbals are good etc...
With jazz accoustic instrument are good rendered etc...
That's right it sounds more like a master tape or a vinyl.

With my cd player without tube it's good but less soul and i get hear tired more quickly. I don't appreciate as much the music