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DAC types and their sonic signature

zalive

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My preference is of no importance.
What is being discussed here is whether or not a filterless NOS R2R DAC outputs the intended signal.
It does not. Any DS DAC is far more accurate.

Facts are: a filterless NOS R2R DAC cannot reproduce the recorded signal accurately as it does not comply to the theorem. Period.
It is not BETTER, the fact that some people like or prefer that sound is an entirely different thing.
It was important to me, that's why I asked.
Tell me honestly, did you click and listen but you don't want to share impressions? Or you never clicked? Please be honest.
Your preference is of importance to you, it's what brings you enjoyment (or not).
 

pkane

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It's not about a difference, it's about taste, liking, preference.
There's no difference between objectivists, subjectivists or any other listener who would not subscribe exclusively or at all to either, in this regard.
We all have our personal taste.
And neither of us really knows whether this own personal taste is completely neutral.
In the end it's completely unimportant when it comes to enjoying in listening to the music.
Systems we listen to are never completely neutral as a whole, nor they can be.
Recordings we listen to are never completely neutral nor they can be. Sometimes they try to emulate the live event, sometimes even not, just trying to appeal to the listeners with the sound.
In the end, preference will decide the choice.
If you look to graphs, then say well that's my preference, it's called a bias.
I think you'll find that very few people look to graphs to determine preference, even among the objectivists.
 

solderdude

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In the end it's completely unimportant when it comes to enjoying in listening to the music.
Systems we listen to are never completely neutral as a whole, nor they can be.
Systems (as in recording to reproduction of soundwaves) indeed no... they are never neutral.
ADC's, DACs and digital systems as well as well designed analog electronics can be neutral.
Objectively this is easy to prove both using ears as measurements.

Recordings we listen to are never completely neutral nor they can be. Sometimes they try to emulate the live event, sometimes even not, just trying to appeal to the listeners with the sound.
Agreed 100%

In the end, preference will decide the choice.
yes, some choose to use well measuring devices so they don't have to worry about that.
Such is their choice and not wrong.
So is your choice from your viewpoint.
Stating that something that does not produce the correct signal is 'better' because of your preference is wrong even though it seems right to you.
More correct would be to say: I know it doesn't measure well but I don't care .. it sounds fine to me. Not that it IS better.


If you look to graphs, then say well that's my preference, it's called a bias.
It's called insurance the performance is good enough so one does not have to wonder/worry.
Those that do not understand graphs should not look at them nor try to interpret them.
 

solderdude

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It was important to me, that's why I asked.
Tell me honestly, did you click and listen but you don't want to share impressions? Or you never clicked? Please be honest.
Your preference is of importance to you, it's what brings you enjoyment (or not).
It's a you tube videao with associated encoding/filtering through speakers I don't know with a mic I don't know under circumstances and mic placement I don't know.
I honestly can not make a decision based on that.

You need to record the outputs of both DACs at at least 192/24 and submit those files. Only then one can make a worthwhile observation.
And include the original file that is reproduced.
 
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zalive

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It's called insurance the performance is good enough so one does not have to wonder/worry.
Those that do not understand graphs should not look at them nor try to interpret them.
What do you do if you buy according to those measurements which says it should be perfect, but you're not satisfied with the result?
 

zalive

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It's a you tube videao with associated encoding/filtering through speakers I don't know with a mic I don't know under circumstances and mic placement I don't know.
I honestly can not make a decision based on that.

You need to record the outputs of both DACs at at least 192/24 and submit those files. Only then one can make a worthwhile observation.
And include the original file that is reproduced.
I still don't see what it's got to do with the preference judgement of the end result.
You still didn't answer whether you listened to it or not.
 

solderdude

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What do you do if you buy according to those measurements which says it should be perfect, but you're not satisfied with the result?
Does not apply, I am happy with the stuff I bought and the stuff I designed and/or built myself.
I am not looking for a specific 'sound signature'.
 

solderdude

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I still don't see what it's got to do with the preference judgement of the end result.
You still didn't answer whether you listened to it or not.
Like I said ... its a youtube video that is non conclusive.
I listened to it (briefly) and find I can not draw any conclusions based on it.
 
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zalive

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Does not apply, I am happy with the stuff I bought and the stuff I designed and/or built myself.
I am not looking for a specific 'sound signature'.
Here and there you can read even here (ASR) some audiophiles experience who weren't satisfied with the end result of what they bought, regardless of good measurements.
What should such do?
 

zalive

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Like I said ... its a youtube video that is non conclusive.
I listened to it (briefly) and find I can not draw any conclusions based on it.
Conclusions was not what was asked by this blind test. Just sound impressions. All you need for this is audio.
 

pkane

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Which is completely natural, preference is based on what you hear and how you like it.
Right. But preference is subjective and influenced by many factors that have nothing to do with accurate sound reproduction. Most people today will prefer compressed, MP3 lossy-encoded music because they are used to listening to it with their smart-phones, cheap IEMs, and bluetooth speakers. Are you going to rush to sell all your high-end components now, since that's what others prefer?

Someone else's preference is meaningless to me. I can't judge anything about the component based on it. But I can certainly judge proper engineering, design, and accuracy of reproduction by looking at measurements. To me, that's a good start for a proper component selection.
 

solderdude

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Here and there you can read even here (ASR) some audiophiles experience who weren't satisfied with the end result of what they bought, regardless of good measurements.
What should such do?
Continue on their eternal queste for audio nirvana.
It is quite possible that 'accarate' isn't what they prefer.
 

Xulonn

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...Don't trust what you hear, instead trust those numbers from simple test which don't emulate music at all, then bias yourself with all those graphs to believe what you hear is top of the world. Self-hypnosis at max level. Well it's great if it works for one. Eventually having ears won't be necessary at all for some, looking at ones and zeroes will do.
Sorry to sound harsh, but this is a completely ignorant statement which is being repeated ad nauseum here at ASR by whiny, defensive audiophools and strict subjectivists.

Objectivists and anyone else who understand science and the interaction of the physical and psychological world DO NOT SAY THAT DIFFERENCES CANNOT BE HEARD.

Rather, they say that your brain can fool you, and that controlled blind listening tests are necessary to determine the differences between what people think they hear, and what their ears are actually detecting.

Listening.jpg
 

Xulonn

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And neither of us really knows whether this own personal taste is completely neutral.
That is one thing I know for sure - my personal tastes and preferences are definitely NOT neutral. And I'm a science guy who values objectivity.
 

Xulonn

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yes, some choose to use well measuring devices so they don't have to worry about that.
Such is their choice and not wrong.
So is your choice from your viewpoint.
Stating that something that does not produce the correct signal is 'better' because of your preference is wrong even though it seems right to you.
More correct would be to say: I know it doesn't measure well but I don't care .. it sounds fine to me. Not that it IS better.
Psychologically, I think many objectivists don't want to find out later that they prefer (or preferred before possibly tiring of the technically bad sound) or were fooled by psycho-acoustic anomalies. That certainly applies to me. If I never found out, all would be fine, but if I do find out that my preference is based on technically flawed hardware, that knowledge would lead to unaviodable disatisfaction with my system. So yes, even objectivists can be heavily influenced by subjective feelings - its part of being human.

Human psychology can make us dislike what we previously liked, even if we are knowledgeable about science and audio technology. My current component stereo system has no known significant flaws - aside from limited bass extension and bad room acoustics. I can live with budget-induced limits out of necessity, but I do not enjoy gross distortion.

And even for objectivists, the buying and selling audio gear often has more to do with the psychology of modern consumerism than with objective audio reproduction goals.

Consumerism.jpg
 

zalive

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Objectivists and anyone else who understand science and the interaction of the physical and psychological world DO NOT SAY THAT DIFFERENCES CANNOT BE HEARD.
The only scientifically based approach possible.

Rather, they say that your brain can fool you, and that controlled blind listening tests are necessary to determine the differences between what people think they hear, and what their ears are actually detecting.
Yes, but you see, this is where this anomaly happens. From the fact that sighted hearing is unrealiable because of inducing bias, to the extreme attitude that all sighted hearing impressions can be considered completely worthless. This is serious anomaly. Theres a difference between unreliable and worthless.
 

zalive

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Continue on their eternal queste for audio nirvana.
It is quite possible that 'accarate' isn't what they prefer.
The yt link I put, I wanted to hear whether other people like the sound which I like to.

I like the sound from the yt a lot. I presume there is really good mic job beneath and obviously a good sound recording too. But all this won't ensure good sound if the system beneath have a good sound.

And that's the reason why I put it. I really wanted to here whether others like as well what I like. Obviously my impressions were sighted but I wanted blind listening impressions from the others to say whether they like it too.

But to me it looks like the others are for some reason afraid to write down their blind impressions of this sound and stand behind them. I don't understand quite why because as you said, there are no valid conclusions from this and there can be no personal judgement too. It was meant to be the only thing which was said, solely about a sound preference.
 

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