DAC ABX shootout - unable to distinguish between 10$ and 15k$

[Pdxwayne]

This is OK to do, but it does make the test a bit more difficult, as it takes some time and possibly creates some noise while the connections are being moved. It is harder to compare two sounds if the switch takes longer than a few seconds. Any noise/clicks, etc., in between the two comparison tracks will also make it harder to compare directly. In some cases, this is the best one can do, but if possible, a quick, noiseless switchover is preferable.

Curious, regarding the amp to headphones impedance compatibility differences, would adding a switch kind of mess it up?
Also, not sure hd650 is that appropriate for this kind of comparison. My understanding is that the hd6xx series' distortions are high below 100hz. How can one easily distinguish sub bass differences using such headphones? Should we use something with very low distortion instead?

 

[sonitus mirus]

But it's not better for the intended purpose (listening-to and enjoying music.

...It's not hard to build an amplifier that goes to 1MHz but it wouldn't make sense to pay more for it. Even at the same price that doesn't (or shouldn't) make it more desirable than an audio amplifier that "only" covers the audio range. (...Probably a bad example because there are good for filtering-out RF.)

Or, you could have a school bus that goes 200MPH!

Speaking of frequency response... Sometimes people say that one reason vinyl is better than CD is that frequency response can sometimes extend higher. But CDs are flatter over the audible range. (Real world records usually just contain noise, and maybe distortion, in the ultrasonic range and extended frequency response doesn't make-up for all the other reasons vinyl is inferior.)

For the intended purpose of being able to listen to perceptibly distortion-free music at a desired volume level, there are exceedingly diminished returns on investments once the commonly available measurements are gathered and similarly compared. This not only goes for an overwhelming majority of DACs and amps, but also more generally for speakers as well when considering most room conditions and the material being played back.

This is simply my personal opinion on the matter as I have discovered through my own journey.

 

[pkane]

Curious, regarding the amp to headphones impedance compatibility differences, would adding a switch kind of mess it up?
Also, not sure hd650 is that appropriate for this kind of comparison. My understanding is that the hd6xx series' distortions are high below 100hz. How can one easily distinguish sub bass differences using such headphones? Should we use something with very low distortion instead?

I'm not sure how a switch will mess up impedance matching, it's either there between the two devices or it's not. A passive switch will not change that to any significant degree at audio frequencies.

I'd say the goal of such ABX tests is to determine if you can hear the difference with your specific equipment. If HD650 is what you're using for listening, then that's the headphone you should use for ABX.

 

[dominikz]

Since we have helps, can we skip the switch? I always have a suspicion that the switch could do something to the signals.....

Blindfold the Op, wife manually move the headphones plug to different headphones amp, would that work?

Perhaps you will find this article useful - I found it a very interesting read on blind listening test methodology and various considerations.

Curious, regarding the amp to headphones impedance compatibility differences, would adding a switch kind of mess it up?
Also, not sure hd650 is that appropriate for this kind of comparison. My understanding is that the hd6xx series' distortions are high below 100hz. How can one easily distinguish sub bass differences using such headphones? Should we use something with very low distortion instead?

A properly done switch doesn't impact impedance - it is practically like connecting/disconnecting two pieces of wire.
I.e. it should keep only the two devices currently listened to connected by a direct connection, and keep the others physically disconnected from this main signal flow.

 

[sonitus mirus]

I suppose you could always null the audio output before the switch box and after the switch box to capture any differences that might be present.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'm not sure how a switch will mess up impedance matching, it's either there between the two devices or it's not. A passive switch will not change that to any significant degree at audio frequencies.

I'd say the goal of such ABX tests is to determine if you can hear the difference with your specific equipment. If HD650 is what you're using for listening, then that's the headphone you should use for ABX.

Perhaps you will find this article useful - I found it a very interesting read on blind listening test methodology and various considerations.

A properly done switch doesn't impact impedance - it is practically like connecting/disconnecting two pieces of wire.
I.e. it should keep only the two devices currently listened to connected by a direct connection, and keep the others physically disconnected from this main signal flow.

I see. Thanks for the replies!

A short while back I bought a headphones cable entender (one ft long) because my headphones cable is a bit short for my usage. Adding that extender seems to cause some odd issues to music (I forgot the specifics) and now it is sat unused.

I hope having additional cables to accommodate a switch would not cause any masking issue for the OP.


Regarding the headphones....I just read Amir's latest tests for Audeze LCD-XC. He suggested using very low distortion headphones for doing tests like distortion tests. Since the OP can afford expensive DAC and AMP combo, I think the OP might continue to wonder if having a better headphones will give him different results or not.

 

[pkane]

I see. Thanks for the replies!

A short while back I bought a headphones cable entender (one ft long) because my headphones cable is a bit short for my usage. Adding that extender seems to cause some odd issues to music (I forgot the specifics) and now it is sat unused.

I hope having additional cables to accommodate a switch would not cause any masking issue for the OP.


Regarding the headphones....I just read Amir's latest tests for Audeze LCD-XC. He suggested using very low distortion headphones for doing tests like distortion tests. Since the OP can afford expensive DAC and AMP combo, I think the OP might continue to wonder if having a better headphones will give him different results or not.

I've made many of my own headphone cables with various pin converters, balanced and unbalanced, from 1ft to 25ft in length. Never had a problem. Of course, as with anything, there can be wiring problems, connection issues, etc. A switch, such as the one Amir measured here, isn't going to cause any problems, especially with impedance matching.

Sure, use the lowest distortion headphones you have to ABX DACs if you want to make sure you can hear the difference. But, also make sure you use the headphone that's a more difficult load to make sure that your amp our DAC headphone output is up to the task.

 

[Zensō]

I see. Thanks for the replies!

A short while back I bought a headphones cable entender (one ft long) because my headphones cable is a bit short for my usage. Adding that extender seems to cause some odd issues to music (I forgot the specifics) and now it is sat unused.

I hope having additional cables to accommodate a switch would not cause any masking issue for the OP.


Regarding the headphones....I just read Amir's latest tests for Audeze LCD-XC. He suggested using very low distortion headphones for doing tests like distortion tests. Since the OP can afford expensive DAC and AMP combo, I think the OP might continue to wonder if having a better headphones will give him different results or not.

There’s really no need to introduce FUD into the discussion. Clearly, if there is a justifiable reason for spending $15K on a DAC, the difference between that DAC and a $9 phone dongle should be glaringly obvious on any headphone.

 

[SIY]

My audio life can easily be divided into before and after I did a controlled test.

#metoo

I knew Lipshitz and Vanderkooy were 100% wrong and I went to prove it. Oops.

 

[MarkWinston]

Ah shit... here comes the 9 dollar dongle gang. Use that if you think it wont make a difference. And read no more as that will be your end game. This forum is really useful for some but this 9 dollar dongle shit has to stop. Practise what you preach. Use that and let that be the end to your dac game.

 

[Pdxwayne]

There’s really no need to introduce FUD into the discussion. Clearly, if there is a justifiable reason for spending $15K on a DAC, the difference between that DAC and a $9 phone dongle should be glaringly obvious on any headphone.

Hmm.....

I will argue that using AKG K371 is better for running such tests, especially for hearing bass differences.

I have a thread about sensing bass different between amp. However, without eq, only my AKG can tell the bass difference. Both hd560s and he400se can't really tell as is.

So, I think the OP don't really need to spend a lot. Maybe also add a low cost akg K371 to the mix.

 

[SIY]

Ah shit... here comes the 9 dollar dongle gang. Use that if you think it wont make a difference. And read no more as that will be your end game. This forum is really useful for some but this 9 dollar dongle shit has to stop. Practise what you preach. Use that and let that be the end to your dac game.

Looking forward to you demonstrating you can hear the difference between the dongle and an expensive DAC.

 

[MarkWinston]

Looking forward to you demonstrating you can hear the difference between the dongle and an expensive DAC.

Looking forward for you to show what your 9 dollar dongle can do.

Ive always known whatever rejection to the 9 dollar dongle claim will spark an outrage among some of you, Ive yet to see any of your main systems consist of that 9 dollar dac. Go on, show me your flat neutral speakers with sota measured amp paired with this 9 dollar plastic.

 

[DonR]

Why is it always assumed that because a mass-produced item is priced low it has got to sound worse than a low production item that is priced high? Besides economies of scale, technology advances at a blistering pace.

 

[Gene LeClair]

There’s really no need to introduce FUD into the discussion. Clearly, if there is a justifiable reason for spending $15K on a DAC, the difference between that DAC and a $9 phone dongle should be glaringly obvious on any headphone.

You can't really say it's not justifiable to spend $15K on a DAC just based on this test. There are cases where it would be justifiable for the added functionality.

Like if the DAC comes with a motorcycle attached to it, or something.

 

[BDWoody]

Practise what you preach. Use that and let that be the end to your dac game.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with any of this.

No one is preaching that's what you should use. Just that it isn't going to be audibly different under most circumstances from the latest greatest veil removing wunderdac.

If you believe you can demonstrate its audible inferiority, by all means do so. Otherwise, maybe stop intentionally missing the point.

 

[antcollinet]

You can't really say it's not justifiable to spend $15K on a DAC just based on this test. There are cases where it would be justifiable for the added functionality.

Like if the DAC comes with a motorcycle attached to it, or something.

 

[Mnyb]

Hello All,

First of all, thank you for the forum contributors who are sharing their knowledge here. I started reading ASR two month ago and just can't get enough of it.
I am sharing my experience with my first ABX testing. Last Friday me, together with a friend performed a double blind test on this systems:

1) Chord Dave + Upscaller from Chord2Go+2U - headphone output
2) Topping D90 + A90 from a laptop
3) Chord Mojo headphone output from Iphone.
4) Apple lightning 3.5mm adapter, output from Iphone.

Volume matching was performed with a dedicated microphone, nothing fancy, but still more reliable that our ears as proven below.
Switching between sources was done though a 4 position 3 pole rotary switch box, unbalanced 6.3mm cables.
Headphones used were the Seinheiser HD650, standard.
Switching was done randomly by my wife, who, with her scientific background, was happy to assist on this.

Result.. We could not tell the difference reliably between the systems. Which is.. proving either that we are both deaf or audio fools. We are repeating the test this Friday, I will post update if I can still type though my tears. Silly enough I can 100% reliably say which one is better when I see what system is connected.

Kudos to the well performed test . A bit jarring i suppose .
I was also lost in the mirror hall created by TAS and their ilk for almost two decades , but i came out the other side gradually and have accepted the situation that the hobby is in a sad state and every player is guilty of it even midifi and hometheater stuff are markettet with tech mumbo jumbo about vibration dampening and special capacitors etc .

My own road to sanity begun when i finally started to apply my own engineering skills to my hobby I do understand what a log scale is and milli volts frequency etc and read up on some basics in more detail and started to test stuff in much simpler and haphazard way than you did . If a had done what you didt it would have been more cold turkey experience .
In found out that the descriptions in 99% of written hifi media and forums was just plain wrong this is not how sh*t works .

Now i think more inline if it quacks like a duck and walks like duck it must be a duck etc .

In engineering lingo of something has a flat frequency response with in the human hearing limits very low noise and astonishingly low distorsion it's must perform very very similar to all other such devices that performs in a similar way .

Btw a phone dongle has limited practicality and not so stellar build it does not have all the inputs and ouputs ( and does not have 4 volt out ) i want nor does it support that many sample rates etc and no case to fit normal cables My Topping D70 on my desk fits most of needs to a resonable price it's fancy enough for a hifi feeling to it ? There are many reasons to buy better stuff build quality and looks are important to .
The rasberry PI sticking out of the back on my Meridian HT processor looks a bit silly (that's how i connect my music server ) but it performs its spdiff duty as well as anything .

Some nice links

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

people.xiph.org

 

[antcollinet]

Looking forward for you to show what your 9 dollar dongle can do.

Ive always known whatever rejection to the 9 dollar dongle claim will spark an outrage among some of you, Ive yet to see any of your main systems consist of that 9 dollar dac. Go on, show me your flat neutral speakers with sota measured amp paired with this 9 dollar plastic.

The reveiw is here,

Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters

This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of Apple's USB-C adapter to the current and last version of Google Pixel headphone adapters. The Apple adapter costs just $9 including one day shipping for free. The Google dongle costs $12. Not that any of these are large by any stretch...

www.audiosciencereview.com

and suggests that differences from SOTA Dac's will be inaudible for most people. Only you can verify that a differene can be heard. People who can't hear a difference can't confirm what you want confirmed.

Step up, do the blind test and post your results. You'll get more respect for your confrontational approach when you do.

 

[dominikz]

Looking forward for you to show what your 9 dollar dongle can do.

Ive always known whatever rejection to the 9 dollar dongle claim will spark an outrage among some of you, Ive yet to see any of your main systems consist of that 9 dollar dac. Go on, show me your flat neutral speakers with sota measured amp paired with this 9 dollar plastic.

As others have suggested, the fact that a $9 DAC is audibly transparent (just as many other DACs in various price brackets now are) doesn't mean that everyone can or should buy it.

As with any audio product, there's obviously a lot of differences between various DACs that have nothing to do with audible transparency: form factor, size, portability, number and type of inputs/outputs, balanced/unbalanced connections, DSP capability, with/without volume control, remote controlled or not, SW quality and support, warranty, looks, etc. etc...

Really I find it amazing that today you can buy a transparent DAC in almost any form and price bracket without spending a fortune