Crowdfund streaming DAC amplifier

[TankTop]

Just a thought, what if ASR members crowdfunded then produced and sold an all in one unit. What would it look like, what components would it use? I’m interested to see where this conversation goes, from components to case, display and even feasibility if this forum could come up with an all in one (minus speakers) unit that could beat anything in production on the market today and compete or generally beat the competition on pricing.

 

[staticV3]

The WiiM Ultra/WiiM Amp Pro seems pretty close to that ideal

 

[TankTop]

The WiiM Ultra/WiiM Amp Pro seems pretty close to that ideal

It’s a great unit and all but what if we wanted dual/quad sub output, 200/400 watts? I’m thinking something in the NAD M33/M66 class but with state of the art bench test measurements in every category (I personally don’t think better than M33 is necessary)?

 

[staticV3]

It’s a great unit and all but what if we wanted dual/quad sub output, 200/400 watts?

Catering to the minority of a minority will seriously impact projected sales numbers, driving up the price and making the unit unattractive to many.

The Amp Pro is the perfect All-in-One unit for 90% of stereo enthusiasts.

For those that want more, one can pair the Ultra with a 2x4 HD and a Hypex/Purifi Amp for quad sub out and 400W per channel.

 

[TankTop]

For those that want more, one can pair the Ultra with a 2x4 HD and a Hypex/Purifi Amp for quad sub out and 400W per channel.

The purpose behind the topic was an all in one unit

 

[Norcal]

All I can imagine at this moment is the Homer Simpson car...

 

[kemmler3D]

Speaking from experience in audio manufacturing: It would be the WiiM Amp with 3-6dB more output, more analog outs, a worse UI, no audible improvement in quality, and it would cost 3-5x unless we could get 10,000+ people on board, maybe even if we do.

It's doable, but it would also take a year+ and occupy most of someone's free time during the year.

And there is the small matter of the software, and how to maintain it over time.

If you want an all-in one unit, a much easier route is getting a custom housing machined to hold some Hypex modules, a WiiM, and maybe an RCA splitter for your multiple sub outs. This probably sounds flippant, but there is a reason that most audio gear is either distinctly mass market or distinctly boutique. Factories generally don't get out of bed for less than 10K+ units unless you pay through the nose. They're doing you a big favor if they agree to produce less than 5K per run.

 

[8bits]

If the Wiim Ultra functioned as a DAC (when plugged into a computer), had at least 2 sub outs, plus had TRS/XLR I/O (as well as the current RCA) it would be pretty much the sweet spot for most of the market. As the other posters here said, I would much rather have the amp section separate.

 

[JeremyFife]

Struggling with this idea ...

Simple - sell and forget - hardware is probably catered for, and not what OP is talking about

Anything else needs software, regular updates and on-going maintenance/support. That's a whole other bucket of eels. Factor in 'design by committee' and it just feels dangerous.

Some manufacturers seem to listen to this site or their user community (Fosi, WiiM, BoXem come to mind immediately ... there are others, I don't mean to single that group out.
Seems to me that we can be clear on our requirements, however much we disagree, support measurement-based reviews and let those enlightened manufacturers listen and deliver.

 

[TonyJZX]

yeah i dont expect anything here to eventuate

i do get what OP wants... sort of like a $1k NAD M33???

but like all of you i also thought first of the Wiim and even that new Marantz M1 thingo

but i almost feel like this is one guy trying to build his own AV receiver... its in that line of thought

and in the end is it worth it? I do get the 'one box' argument but I agree this sort of endeavour is beyond even a small group of enthusiasts... HELLL its even beyond many of the Chinese giants

its requires massive post sales support let alone initial design... again i'm always in awe of how fast the Chinese can spin up new boxes

to my mind there's enough small two box solutions that would be about the same shelf space if you can overlook the handful of power and interconnects

ALSO a huge thought always in my mind about ONE BOX solutions is inevitably certain parts of the unit gets old and you end up needing additional boxes to remain current... I accept that in the AV world but for this???

if you accept two box where one is the amplification then that section never goes out of style

a digital preamp w/streaming will go 'out of fashion' eventually but this is the game

 

[Mikig]

ALSO a huge thought always in my mind about ONE BOX solutions is inevitably certain parts of the unit gets old and you end up needing additional boxes to remain current... I accept that in the AV world but for this???

I agree. I prefer the amplification part separated from the digital part. An amplifier can last 30 years, new ones with excellent measurements perhaps even longer. The digital part, the receiver that manages the source and converts it, has and perhaps will have a much shorter life if formats change.

So my ideal amp is just amp. I willingly give up display sub outputs, I don't use it, EQ, which I already have in Roon, Dac, streamer and so on.
I'm only interested in a well-designed, well-sounding simple amp.

 

[Power Pop 23]

I would be concerned about after sales support for the streaming function of such an 'All-In-One'. Audiophonics sells the 'Audiophonics DAW-S250NC' integrated amplifier with WiiM streaming built-in :

AUDIOPHONICS DAW-S250NC Class D Integrated Amplifier NCore NC252MP DAC ES9038Q2M WiFi Bluetooth 2x250W 4 Ohm 32bit 768kHz DSD - Audiophonics

Versatile and powerful, we offer you with the DAW-S250NC a real integrated and connected amplifier to which you can add speakers to enjoy your music in the best possible way...

www.audiophonics.fr

An ASR member noted in the posting #185 below that Audiophonics told him the feature of PEQ could not be added to the WiiM unit in his Audiophonics DAW-S250NC.

Audiophonics DA-S250NC DAC & Power Amp Review

I'm on 14.0 First time I try to use this feature, it looks like I can choose how I want media shared ("bluetooth" "printer" and "internet" can be checked individually), and then I get the dialog box below. No idea how this works to be honest, and no idea if it relates to making the files on my...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Brian Hall]

The WiiM Ultra/WiiM Amp Pro seems pretty close to that ideal

Not enough inputs. I was going to get the Ultra, but no USB and no Coax inputs are a deal breaker. If it just had those, I could have simplified my office system by using it as a DAC, streamer, EQ, preamp and headphone amp. I need USB for my PC and Coax for my CD player.

 

[TankTop]

yeah i dont expect anything here to eventuate

i do get what OP wants... sort of like a $1k NAD M33???

but like all of you i also thought first of the Wiim and even that new Marantz M1 thingo

but i almost feel like this is one guy trying to build his own AV receiver... its in that line of thought

and in the end is it worth it? I do get the 'one box' argument but I agree this sort of endeavour is beyond even a small group of enthusiasts... HELLL its even beyond many of the Chinese giants

its requires massive post sales support let alone initial design... again i'm always in awe of how fast the Chinese can spin up new boxes

to my mind there's enough small two box solutions that would be about the same shelf space if you can overlook the handful of power and interconnects

ALSO a huge thought always in my mind about ONE BOX solutions is inevitably certain parts of the unit gets old and you end up needing additional boxes to remain current... I accept that in the AV world but for this???

if you accept two box where one is the amplification then that section never goes out of style

a digital preamp w/streaming will go 'out of fashion' eventually but this is the game

It was more of an idea and I was curious how people would respond. No expectation that we would attempt unless a large portion of the forum said we could absolutely do it. Sometimes peer review sucks but I’ll accept the answer.

 

[Miguelón]

Just a thought, what if ASR members crowdfunded then produced and sold an all in one unit. What would it look like, what components would it use? I’m interested to see where this conversation goes, from components to case, display and even feasibility if this forum could come up with an all in one (minus speakers) unit that could beat anything in production on the market today and compete or generally beat the competition on pricing.

As StaticV3 mentioned WiiM ultra is my ideal, even without WiiM amp because I use active speakers since 20 years.

I don’t know specs of the amp, but the problem of all-in-one system which include power stages is that half the consumers wont use as much power and the other half will feel lack of power

Amplifier should be independent IMHO.

Perhaps only add balanced outputs to the Ultra

 

[kemmler3D]

It was more of an idea and I was curious how people would respond. No expectation that we would attempt unless a large portion of the forum said we could absolutely do it. Sometimes peer review sucks but I’ll accept the answer.

It's a nice thought because the ASR crowd could put together a really excellent spec. I'm on board as far as that goes. But the realities and economics of manufacturing electronics are unforgiving.

If you are willing to take it on yourself you can do a crowdfunding campaign. It's possible you can get enough pre-orders from ASR and elsewhere to get it built. I've done them and it's not beyond reach. But it's a big job even if you get more $$ than you strictly need.

 

[KSTR]

If you want an all-in one unit, a much easier route is getting a custom housing machined to hold some Hypex modules, a WiiM, and maybe an RCA splitter for your multiple sub outs. This probably sounds flippant, but there is a reason that most audio gear is either distinctly mass market or distinctly boutique. Factories generally don't get out of bed for less than 10K+ units unless you pay through the nose. They're doing you a big favor if they agree to produce less than 5K per run.

This!
The only way to go is to assemble known-good and readily available (OEM-)modules, like rPi or NUC + display for streamer and UI and any DSP, some decent I2S or USB DAC, multichannel even, and a set of class-D amps.

Still a hell of a job to design, getting it certificated and then set up (and maintain) an actual production and product support for years, halfway cost-effective and all.

 

[TonyJZX]

this place has a hard on for pffb tpa3255 units.... i would hazard a guess that these would be pretty much close enough in the real world to the entry hypex ncore units

i dont mind the wiim ultra... it has a few caveats that i hope they fix with a 'pro' unit... maybe with dirac???

I mean that would do it all right?

 

[TankTop]

Seems the biggest hurtle is continued updates and support, what if it was a ‘barebones’ all in one with open source software. Something designed to be end user updated with no firmware that blocks future upgrades, truly open architecture.

 

[kemmler3D]

Seems the biggest hurtle is continued updates and support, what if it was a ‘barebones’ all in one with open source software. Something designed to be end user updated with no firmware that blocks future upgrades, truly open architecture.

It's called a Raspberry Pi...