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Crest factor - how detectable is it?

RobL

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On this page there are two samples of music, one with a 20dB crest factor and another of the same piece with the crest factor trimmed by 6bB. The author feels that no one should be able to pass a double blind test comparing the two files. On my system at home I feel I can pretty easily identify which has the higher crest factor. So is he wrong?
 

Weeb Labs

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Have you performed an ABX test? If so, please do share the results.
 

DVDdoug

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It depends on the nature of the peaks. Some short-term peaks are too short to be perceived as "loud".

If you make an MP3 or a vinyl record, usually some peaks are made higher and some lower. The new-highest peaks make a 'better" crest factor without changing the sound of the dynamics. (But that's usually just a couple of dB.)

On my system at home I feel I can pretty easily identify which has the higher crest factor. So is he wrong?
There is software for doing your own Blind BX Test. ABX testing of hardware isn't easy but when you are comparing audio files, the software can do the blind switching and randomization for you, and it only takes one person and a computer.

P.S.
I agree with the author's premise, but he says a couple of things that aren't true:

4. Peaks are difficult to detect, difficult to observe, and difficult to measure. Only in relatively recent history have we had instrumentation to accurately quantify signal peaks. The wave editor shown above is one example.
Techtronix started selling oscilloscopes in the 1940s, and it was invented before that. And you could build a peak detector with vacuum tunes. (I've built several peak detectors with op-amps.) And it's super-easy with digital files... You just search-through the file for the highest positive or negative sample value.


5. Many audiophiles have a preference for the sonic characteristics of vacuum tube amplifiers. These amplifiers are inherently poor at peak reproduction. Their “peak rounding” behavior has even been described as adding “warmth.”
Tube amps can have headroom for peaks. They only "peak round" (AKA "soft clip") when overdriven. And although tube amps tend to soft-clip, the actual performance depends on the design. Guitar amps (both solid state and tube) are designed to "soft clip" for "pleasant distortion" when overdriven.
 
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fpitas

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It depends on the nature of the peaks. Some short-term peaks are too short to be perceived as "loud".

If you make an MP3 or a vinyl record, usually some peaks are made higher and some lower. The new-highest peaks make a 'better" crest factor without changing the sound of the dynamics. (But that's usually just a couple of dB.)


There is software for doing your own Blind BX Test. ABX testing of hardware isn't easy but when you are comparing audio files, the software can do the blind switching and randomization for you, and it only takes one person and a computer.

P.S.
I agree with the author's premise, but he says a couple of things that aren't true:


Techtronix started selling oscilloscopes in the 1940s, and it was invented before that. And you could build a peak detector with vacuum tunes. (I've built several peak detectors with op-amps.) And it's super-easy with digital files... You just search-through the file for the highest positive or negative sample value.


Tube amps can have headroom for peaks. They only "peak round" (AKA "soft clip") when overdriven. And although tube amps tend to soft-clip, the actual performance depends on the design. Guitar amps (both solid state and tube) are designed to "soft clip" for "pleasant distortion" when overdriven.
Yeah, the premise may have some validity, but he really needs to get with the times (meaning past 1940 :facepalm:).
 
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RobL

RobL

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Yes, being ASR…burden of proof and all that…I’m willing to abx them but how do I acquire the files to put them in foobar?
 

fpitas

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Yes, being ASR…burden of proof and all that…I’m willing to abx them but how do I acquire the files to put them in foobar?
In fact, different people might just be able to hear it, or not. So if you care, you may need to do your own tests.
 
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RobL

RobL

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Ok, I got them off the script. I attached a pic of my abx…so I guess the author overstated?

IMG_0206.jpeg
 

restorer-john

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I just did an ABX with a pair of those Sony $10 headphones and a Scarlett 2i2 at my desk. The dog was barking at the neighbours during the last part of the test, so I had to send him out the back. LOL.

1694986952040.png
 

gnarly

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Nice work RobL,

For the most part, I consider SynAudCon a reference. But on this crest factor article a while back, i too thought wtf....this isn't all that hard to hear the difference.


I think it's probably an example of how individuals hear differently.
I kinda hate it when the mean/mode/median of the audibility distribution becomes accepted as the "science of audibility".
The parallel is the "science of audible preferences" lol

You posted while i was typing restorer-john.
No surprise, thx.
 

Thomas_A

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How to get the files to ABX?
 

Thomas_A

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RobL

RobL

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The two loud strikes at 04 and 19 sec are tells for sure, but even through the rest of the clip I feel there are smaller differences.
 

Thomas_A

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"You would be hard-pressed to find a human that can detect a sonic difference between these two waveforms in a double-blind test. Simply put, they sound the same. Why? Let’s look at some facts about peaks that have been known for a century.".

Must be a joke

Skärmavbild 2023-09-18 kl. 00.04.14.png
 
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RobL

RobL

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"You would be hard-pressed to find a human that can detect a sonic difference between these two waveforms in a double-blind test. Simply put, they sound the same. Why? Let’s look at some facts about peaks that have been known for a century.".

Must be a joke
I guess the author didn’t actually listen to the files? Crest factor is actually a big deal?
 

Thomas_A

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I guess the author didn’t actually listen to the files? Crest factor is actually a big deal?
No, it seems he did not listen. These are really easy files to detect.

Should someone point to the errors of that article on that site perhaps? Is it a serious site?
 

fpitas

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I guess the author didn’t actually listen to the files? Crest factor is actually a big deal?
Maybe he can't hear it?
 
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RobL

RobL

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No, it seems he did not listen. These are really easy files to detect.

Should someone point to the errors of that article on that site perhaps? Is it a serious site?
Yes it’s actually a pretty great resource…nobody’s perfect I guess, lol
 
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