Could we all be wrong about SINAD?

[JSmith]

This is the "danger" of ASR reviews.

I don't think there is any danger performance wise (not build quality) in someone picking say a DAC from the top 20 or so.

Amir explains things well for people and has a whole thread and video on understanding the measurements. Like any purchase, caveat emptor.

It seems there is this constant quest out there (not you) to discredit ASR, which to me just comes from a bunch of butt hurt audio product brands and sour "reviewers". I think Amir and ASR members do a great job of cutting through the bullshit and telling it how it is... showing how ingrained ideas about audio are often incorrect and even having an effect on manufacturers to do better.

Ranking products by a metric for the purpose of a graph is fine.



JSmith

 

[TulseLuper]

If an engineer has evidence that their device has passed the threshold of noise/distortion audibility for it's targeted users, it's reasonable for them to move on and focus on good feature set and other factors. There's no more "homework" to do. Conversely, a designer who gets their headphone amp to the SINAD stratosphere but fails to ensure it won't damage headphones plugged in to it has not done their "homework" in that particular case, no matter how talented they are. Obviously high SINAD and overall quality are usually correlated, so I like the reviews as they are. Just saying I'll be slow to judge a designer based on SINAD results.

Simplistic numerical ranking systems seem like they make life easier for consumers but commonly do more harm than good. This isn't that, and readers shouldn't make it that.

 

[b7676]

SINAD is the shadow of the signal path looking for a stumbling block. Measurable gremlins. How deep into the bits can we dig before glancing off the noise floor.

Do audio companies have tests we don't know about to meditate on how well an implementation reproduces a particular tone profile? Yes? But,
Such practical design knowledge is approaching genius level artistry, and is typically an individual effort. Difficult to consistently practice widely within organizations. If the SINAD is poor all the people who managed a/b'ing different topologies wasted their time looking at the forest, never picking apart one tree one core objectively with the common high precision methods.
The cost here of dropped focus are poisoned products. One engineer lamented about how new bmw's would roll by and completely interfere with his electronics. How long can gross noise go unseen and unheard in the design process? By holding those responsible to task after the thing is in production, polluting to the nth degree?
Shame bad actors who are doing the wrong things with fine chips, misleading consumers, or cheaping out in the wrong ways, and define State Of The Art. SINAD does this well.

 

[torgeirs]

Its also worth noting that extrem high SINAD requires low source resistance and output resistance. This often generates heat because of the currents needed. So powerconsumption and durability of heated components should also be considered.
-100 dB SINAD the equipment can be low power
-120 dB SINAD often not low power

 

[Sharur]

SINAD is low commonly due to following reasons:

1. The "designer" doesn't know what he is doing and has produced utter garbage.

2. The designer is competent but never measured so is not aware of obvious problems with the implementation. Had he measured, he could have fixed them at usually little to no cost. Because instrumentation is so expensive, this is extremely common.

3. The designer is resorting to "audiophile" concepts that have never been proven to actually benefit the sound. Examples include no feedback amplifiers, sticking tubes in otherwise good circuits with poor implementation, etc. Such changes often raise the price significantly due to either cost of the components or just the fact that the device is "audiophile" category now.

None of these approaches merit you handing the company money. You are getting less and many times paying more.

SINAD therefore is a proxy and litmus test for design excellence. To the extent the designer worked hard to measure and optimize the design and knows what he is doing, then not only SINAD at 1 kHz is great, but likely elsewhere. I don't know of a single audio device with SINAD > 110 dB that has not benefited this way.

Remember that to get the highest SINAD, you must conquer noise. You are not only fighting the noise that your product produces, but also the noise in the measurement system! Noise is absolutely audible and simple depends on volume you play. Passive speakers are noiseless as are headphones. So they are not the limiting factor.

The only reason to ditch SINAD then is to want to buy blind and rewarding companies who don't do much to deliver excellence to you.

I would rather have a product with <100 dB SINAD that operates flawlessly over a product with 112 dB SINAD that is very annoying to use *cough cough* Topping E30 *cough cough.*

Subjective impressions stem from how the product makes you feel. If you're constantly messing with an unresponsive touchscreen power button while being blinded by an orange LED, it detracts from the subjective experience.

I would take a 16-inch MacBook Pro HP out over every DAC/AMP on the market regardless of price as long as I can get the headphones loud enough. Very easy to use, digital volume control for perfect channel matching that shows up on a 3072x1920 display with 500 nits peak brightness, more steps than traditional digital volume control (touch bar), so much more power than Apple Dongle, and up to "32-bit" compatibility for extra subjective sauce.

And guess what? My MacBook sounds better to me subjectively despite not being able to tell it apart from E30 in blind test.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Ideally, I'd like to see a numerical 1 -> 10 ranking system for parameters like SINAD, frequency response, noise, output level vs distortion, ergonomics and build quality. These would be listed individually and their average reported as an overall score.

Some reviews do this already and I think it could satisfy both novices and the data would still be there for people who want to geek out on the graphs 'n charts.

More work for Amir though....

 

[antcollinet]

Its also worth noting that extrem high SINAD requires low source resistance and output resistance. This often generates heat because of the currents needed. So powerconsumption and durability of heated components should also be considered.
-100 dB SINAD the equipment can be low power
-120 dB SINAD often not low power

I'm sorry what?

You might want to review that statement.

 

[Chrispy]

Preference doesn't necessarily equate to reference....

 

[Raindog123]

Preference doesn't necessarily equate to reference....

…which in turn does not equate to eference. And so on.

 

[beren777]

Assuming there is good science to predict harmonics that are generally perceived favorably or unfavorably, it'd be interesting to see a score that is based on weighting the harmonics in the FFT. While it has similar dangers to any "single number" score, one could look at SINAD ("objective purity") and "Panther Preference" ("likelihood of finding the distortion profile pleasing, neutral, or yuck").

 

[dshreter]

I apologize for the abruptness, but the theory here is absurd. If there was any sort of desirable distortion, it would be preferentially added to the recording itself and played on a system with as little alteration as possible. I can’t see a cohesive argument for why the equipment should modify the signal instead of doing so in mastering.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I apologize for the abruptness, but the theory here is absurd. If there was any sort of desirable distortion, it would be preferentially added to the recording itself and played on a system with as little alteration as possible. I can’t see a cohesive argument for why the equipment should modify the signal instead of doing so in mastering.

Nice try, but your speakers (and room) are already altering the sound before it gets to your ears - so lacking being the recording engineer who made the original recording you're not hearing what was in the studio. I agree with your premise, but the real world is not perfect, and there are infinite shades of gray (i.e. preferences) between the black and white.

 

[amirm]

Nice try, but your speakers (and room) are already altering the sound before it gets to your ears - so lacking being the recording engineer who made the original recording you're not hearing what was in the studio. I agree with your premise, but the real world is not perfect, and there are infinite shades of gray (i.e. preferences) between the black and white.

He is making a different and valid point. That if someone has figured out certain distortion profile is good to have all the time, then might as well be baked into said music. That is independent of what the speaker is doing.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

He is making a different and valid point. That if someone has figured out certain distortion profile is good to have all the time, then might as well be baked into said music. That is independent of what the speaker is doing.

Comparing in any way a purely subjective thing like creating music with a purely objective thing like engineering a playback system is misguided at best. Pondering how one 'should' affect the other just shows lack of knowledge of one or the other or both disciplines. The only universal rule is that there are no rules. We choose what we want based on preference and hopefully don't try to force that choice on others.

 

[dshreter]

Comparing in any way a purely subjective thing like creating music with a purely objective thing like engineering a playback system is misguided at best. Pondering how one 'should' affect the other just shows lack of knowledge of one or the other or both disciplines. The only universal rule is that there are no rules. We choose what we want based on preference and hopefully don't try to force that choice on others.

Fine, I accept that there is room for subjective preference in how music should be played back. But still in a world where we can build high SINAD devices, something like adding harmonic distortion should then be configurable by the end user instead of hardwired as a “feature.” Then you can have it any way you like or to choose from amongst some presets.

 

[beren777]

The loudness wars suggest that it isn't unheard of (no pun intended, ok, yes, intended) for arguably undesirable changes to be made in the recording. What's in the recording is the studio's interpretation of what will be most broadly preferable. It's art, not gospel.

I agree with you that a sound reproduction system should be that - a reproduction system, not one that also contributes to the performance.

I also agree that in cases where a user wants a certain signature, applying it via DSP would be preferable. The user can then modify it however they like.

I am not saying it's a good or bad thing for a specific amplifier or AVR to have a sound signature. I assume there are models which distort differently, be it an intentional "house sound" or accidental, are there studies that demonstrate people generally do or don't prefer a signature, and if so, what are the trends, and is there any correlation with age and/or hearing loss?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Fine, I accept that there is room for subjective preference in how music should be played back. But still in a world where we can build high SINAD devices, something like adding harmonic distortion should then be configurable by the end user instead of hardwired as a “feature.” Then you can have it any way you like or to choose from amongst some presets.

Well in a way the 'feature' of changing the 'original' sound of the recording is made the minute a person chooses a pair of speakers. We listen to several speakers to find one which fits our preference, but that is really choosing the distortion and frequency response profile of a particular speaker among the distortion and frequency response profiles of all the other speakers. And don't try to tell me we look for the most 'neutral' speaker! Unless someone is the recording engineer who sat at the console and mixed the original recording, we have no idea what that 'neutral' is.

The best we do is to try to match what we think the music should sound like through a particular speaker - and that really comes down to how we want a speaker to distort the sound. ALL speakers have enormous amounts of distortion compared to an electronic component - all we can do is choose the poison we think tastes the best.

 

[HiFidFan]

Comparing in any way a purely subjective thing like creating music with a purely objective thing like engineering a playback system is misguided at best. Pondering how one 'should' affect the other just shows lack of knowledge of one or the other or both disciplines. The only universal rule is that there are no rules. We choose what we want based on preference and hopefully don't try to force that choice on others.

The issue, as far as I understand it, is that having distortion "baked in" a piece in the audio chain is that not everyone would agree that the distortion type/level is desirable. Different strokes and all that. . .

 

[garbulky]

You guys haven’t considered that people engineer for a purpose. If a sinad of 80 is for usable purposes sounds as good as it gets compared to devices with very low distortion, then how is that a problem? Is that a bad thing that the engineers stopped there and spent their time doing other things? They are engineering the product for real world use and experience. So if a lower measuring sinad doesn’t make a usable difference why are we dragging these products through the mud? Yes there’s pride in low distortion but so what if it doesn’t actually matter?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The issue, as far as I understand it, is that having distortion "baked in" a piece in the audio chain is that not everyone would agree that the distortion type/level is desirable. Different strokes and all that. . .

Absolutely. Personally I opt for as little distortion as possible consistent with the other goals I'm trying to achieve in my system. In my view, the speakers we select are the primary influence on what 'distortions' we like. Even the grossest distortion (comparatively speaking) of electronics is rather insignificant compared to speaker / room distortions.