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Cayin Mini-CD MKII CD Player Review

Rate this CD Player:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 34 21.5%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 80 50.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 37 23.4%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 7 4.4%

  • Total voters
    158
With old players you can try the analog out just out of interest. For example affordable Marantz CD-62 has Philips TDA1547 dac which is 1-bit 256x oversampling bitstream device. Other TDAs are featured plenty throughout the models too. If you're interested in this sort of stuff.
This is very true. And I would recommend the community to consider older JVC players using their own DAC of the time, the JCE4302A:

IMG_8460.jpeg


I measured two of these and I was surprised by the very good results and compared to the big names (BB, Philips, …) of the time.

A JVC XL-Z335, for instance, will offer 16bits of true resolution. Even when the signal is lower than full scale, it will continue to show extremely good linearity and very low distorsion. Exemple here below @-20dBFS (with dithered signal):

IMG_8461.jpeg


Multitone test was really beautiful too, exhibiting much more than 16bits true resolution:

IMG_8462.jpeg


Other measurements were great too, including chanel mismatch (less than 0.1dB), near flat bandwidth (-0.8dB @20kHz due to early roll off of the oversampling filter), or good filter attenuation (showing the Noise Shaping technique of their 1bit conversion, by the way):

IMG_8463.jpeg


Go grab one, you can’t be disappointed. I think JVC did not know how to make a bad CD player ;)
 
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yes an old cd player seems to be the ticket .

Btw i reckoned the pure CD transport where a rip-off even back then :) rip out 2/3 of the player and triple the price ....
 
You need to clear 16bit for the standard.
JVC: Ok... hold my beer.
Philips: We made 1bit, 10bit and 14bit, actually anything but 16bit, I drank your beer.
 
You need to clear 16bit for the standard.
JVC: Ok... hold my beer.
Philips: We made 1bit, 10bit and 14bit, actually anything but 16bit, I drank your beer.
Indeed, the first TDA1540 was 14bits only and its oversampling filter with Noise Shaping (SAA7030) reduced quantization errors and helped getting decent linearity and good control of distorsion. Here below a Philips CD104 and Marantz CD-73 compared:

IMG_8465.jpeg


Their oversampling filter (4x) showed significant ripple though (bandwidth measurement at -12dBFS):

IMG_8464.jpeg


The Marantz had a different analog output/filtering as you can see, and which explains the gentle roll-off at both ends.
 
Their oversampling filter (4x) showed significant ripple though (bandwidth measurement at -12dBFS):
People sometimes question why we even bother measuring dacs. This is a nice historical point why we used to measure them. :D
Also a good reminder that dacs have been a solved problem for a long time but that certain beliefs and myths about digital audio have their basis in reality. How audible and in what way this is... can't remember, it's been many years, but at least it measures.
 
Well, 0.3dB variation could be heard under specific conditions if these two were directly compared with more recent DAC with a truly flat bandwidth (especially because the variation shown here is in the highest sensitivity of our ears). For that, the two devices under test would need to be very precisely adjusted in their output levels as this would otherwise have more influence than the ripple effect itself.
A modern DAC with output level adjustable by 0.1dB step would be required.
 
Also a good reminder that dacs have been a solved problem for a long time but that certain beliefs and myths about digital audio have their basis in reality.
Indeed.
And I’m having fun deciphering old tech and how it evolved. I already mentioned the Sony CDP-337ES which, I think, had the most elegant implementation of… Philips TDA1541 DAC (this is funny). Sony used their own 8x oversampling filter (CXD1144) which featured a specific “staggered” output, allowing them to feed two DACs which were running at 4x44.1kHz only (typically the TDA1541). The CXD1144 datasheet shows the intertwined data:

IMG_8467.jpeg


The result was that Sony managed to make these TDA1541 best any Philips implementation of their own blood. I measured the Philips TDA1541A and the star TDA1541A S1 (with its crown) in two Revox CD players (B 126 and B 226-S respectively):

IMG_8468.jpeg


These two players show 0.05dB ripple as they are limited by the Philips oversampling filter (SAA7220).

On the other side, Sony managed to stay well below .05dB ripple (bottom trace below).
To be complete, I added a Yamaha CDX-1110 which was using its own 8x oversampling capable filter (the YM3414) with BurrBrown PCM56-K DACs DACs forcing Yamaha to slower the output of their filter at 4x, yet ripple is better controlled (extremely zoomed BW shown, with split traces on purpose so don’t bother real value on the left):

IMG_8466.jpeg


Note this is linear frequency scale, as it’s easier to see the ripple effect over the bandwidth.
 
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Well, 0.3dB variation could be heard under specific conditions if these two were directly compared with more recent DAC with a truly flat bandwidth (especially because the variation shown here is in the highest sensitivity of our ears). For that, the two devices under test would need to be very precisely adjusted in their output levels as this would otherwise have more influence than the ripple effect itself.
A modern DAC with output level adjustable by 0.1dB step would be required.
I can hear 0.5dB pretty easily with familiar tracks. 0.3 is not much but I guess depending on the music this waviness could hit audibly.
Perhaps it doesn't quite work like this but I'm thinking a track where instrument one rides the lows all the way and another the ups, notes and overtones, so in musical context it's not just 0.3dB once. I have plenty of instruments and effects but I've never tried to eq anything this subtle in mind.
Edit: Yes I know an instrument has more notes than one :D But as a general idea about how this could be perceived a bit more powerfully.
 
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Are there any good alternatives to this with optical out but not the bit errors this has ?
I picked up the Teax PD-301-X/S from Amazon a few weeks ago. It has optical/coax/analog outs and an FM tuner.
The FM Tuner can play through the digital outputs which is kind of cool. It also has a USB input which I think is pretty limited (300 files?)
Overall a nice player in a half width format and not much more than the Cayin.

1722962197487.png
 
If small is needed Pro-ject has made these for years so used should be pretty cheap as the new base model E is 300€. S and DS are nice too DS being a bit more muscular (but still very petite).

IMG_0610.jpeg
 
@Verig : I hope this player performs better than published specs, else it’s worse than a Marantz CD-73 of 42 years ago. If I can find one cheap, I’ll give it a go, for the fun of measurements.
 
@Verig : I hope this player performs better than published specs, else it’s worse than a Marantz CD-73 of 42 years ago. If I can find one cheap, I’ll give it a go, for the fun of measurements.
I must admit that while I very much like Pro-ject turntables at $1k and over and their phono stages with on-the-fly adjustable settings and balanced connection for MC options... I've never much trusted electronics in this product line.
But because I actually haven't seen measurements or ever tried this E-model myself I decided to forego my bias and post it. It's a nice and clean look with very small size so perhaps just the ticket for some.
Measurements would be fun indeed. :)
 
Hi @Verig, I did not find a Pro-Ject CD for sale, but in my search, I found a mini CD player Onkyo C-733. I won the auction and so it will be mine next week. I’ll measure it and will probably publish here in a new thread (unless it’s already been reviewed, I need to check). I’ll let you know once done.
Cheers.
 
I used to own this. Whatever problems Amir found, they were not audible to me, so I was very happy with it. Unfortunately, after defending slot loading CD players... the mechanism broke! So sent it for repairs, got repaired, got stolen getting back to me :( so do not have it anymore.

However, it had come up as a subject and it has been mentioned that it doesn't support gapless playback!?
Quick search on this thread, shows no mention of the word "gapless", so not sure if people have commented.

I don't remember having an issue with that. At all. So that bothers me. I listened to classical music, The Wall, etc.. should have noticed! I did not have it THAT long... so, it is possible that maybe by coincidence I did not play anything requiring gapless playback, but doubt it. TBF, it was part of my "for work" rig. So maybe I was just not paying attention.

Could anybody confirm? Does it support gapless playback?

Thanks!
 
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Cayin Mini-CD MKII CD transport and stereo player. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $279.
View attachment 303504
The unit comes with a good looking and feeling metal case. I like the large display but controls didn't seem very responsive. Below it is my circa 1998 LINN MIMIK cd player. It cost US $1,595 then which would be almost $3,000 today! I thought it would be nice to compare the performance of one against the other.

Back side shows the usual connections:
View attachment 303505
The external adapter is a bit of a buzzkill. They should have charged $299 and put the darn power supply inside.

Here are its specs:
Output Level:2.0V
Frequency Response:20Hz~20kHz (+0.5dB)
Distortion and Noise:0.007% (1kHz)
S/N Ratio:90dB (20-20KHz, A-weighted)
Dynamic Range:90dB (20-20KHz, A-weighted)
Crosstalk:77 dB
Digital output:S/PDIF (RCA) & I2S (HDMI)
Output Impedance SPDIF:75ohm
Dimensions:240mmx213mmx58mm (WxDxH)
Net Weight:~2.0kg
Maximum Power Consumption:12W
Disc Support:12cm CD-Audio Disc

Edit: earlier version of this review used a CD which was burned incorrectly. Much thanks to member @Rja4000 for finding the issue with this. The review is now updated.

Cayin MINI-CD MKII Player vs LINN MIMIK Measurements
By definition, I can only run static files burned onto a CD and not sweeps. So we can't run many tests but what is there, should give us a good idea. Let's start with the dashboard using analog out from the Cayin:
View attachment 304406

Nice to see the full 2 volt output but sad to see that we can't come close to resolving 16 bits with a SINAD of just 83 dB. Third harmonic dominates SINAD. Fortunately it meets spec. The LINN does better but still fails to reach 16 bit fidelity:
View attachment 304407
Distortion is now at -96 dB so it is noise that is holding back the LINN.

Switching to S/PDIF on Cayin we come close to the SINAD of dithered 1 kHz tone (around 93 dB) but there is spurious odd set of harmonics:
View attachment 304408

We will come back to that later in the review. LINN produces perfect output:
View attachment 304409

Even though Cayin had higher distortion, it bests the LINN in noise department:
View attachment 304410

I also measured both players using white noise:
View attachment 304422

The Cayin is doing a much better job of filtering out of band noise.

I measured jitter two ways, analog and digital. Let's start with analog output:
View attachment 304413

For digital output, the analyzer extracts the clock jitter and performs the FFT spectrum analysis:
View attachment 304414

We see that generally Cayin is better in correlated jitter but has one constant, non-correlated component around 16.5 kHz. That might be the microprocessor or display frequency. We actually see it even after we feed the output to Topping D70s and measure its analog output:
View attachment 304415

That aside, note the much lower noise floor of D70s compared to the two DACs. BTW, those spikes at 250 Hz are part of the signal and need to be there.

One strange thing is why the level is slightly higher when Linn drives the D70s vs Cayin. The explanation may be in the following test where I fed both DACs to Topping D70s over S/PDIF and captured out usual dashboard. First is LINN MIMIK:
View attachment 304416
Naturally D70s produces exceptionally clean output with essentially no distortion. SINAD is limited by the maximum possible with a dithered 16 bit test tone's noise floor.

Cayin though, acts different:
View attachment 304418

We see the same series of spikes. Looking at the spectrum, it is odd harmonics which tells me a bit is being toggled. From this, I am pretty sure the Cayin's digital output is NOT bit exact!!! It is literally producing different digital samples and hence the reason those spikes are burned in and come out of the D70s DAC.

Conclusions
The Cayin looks like a nice CD player despite its low cost. Alas, its built-in DAC has too much distortion. And if my guess is right that it is corrupting the low order bit of the digital stream over S/PDIF, using an external DAC won't help you either! Company needs to investigate this and find out what is going on.

Given the newly found issue with the bitstream coming out of the Cayin and high distortion of its own DAC, I can't recommend it.

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I like this as transport a lot. It sounds great. Still seems to sound better than streaming to me. The upsampling is fun, I have it playing to an e70velvet to an A70pro balanced and out as a preamp to my amp stereo 2.1 and it’s a pleasant, dynamic and fun listen.
 
I’d be interested in a competent CD transport if there was one at a reasonable price.
Not everything that can be measured can be heard. A piece of gear can only sound so good. Beyond that point it can only sound different. One can quickly reach the point of no return. Cayin makes some very good tube amps, and for a very reasonable price. The Chinese are making some of the best tube gear going. Some popular, expensive makes are built in China, but designed in the Netherlands, or USA. Actually, the values in these tests are very close. There are some very good CD players today under $400 USD/ under 400 Euro- Cambridge Audio, Denon, Yamaha. There are many used players in the market that are still very good. I am using a Sony DVD player now for a CD player. It sounds decent. I have been looking for a CD player. I am concerned those may become rare in coming years. I am thinking of a Denon, or Cayin, or Yamaha. A HiFi shop near me has the Cayin for sale at 399 Euro, and a Yamaha S300 for 100 Euro. Good luck.
 
I used to own this. Whatever problems Amir found, they were not audible to me, so I was very happy with it. Unfortunately, after defending slot loading CD players... the mechanism broke! So sent it for repairs, got repaired, got stolen getting back to me :( so do not have it anymore.

However, it had come up as a subject and it has been mentioned that it doesn't support gapless playback!?
Quick search on this thread, shows no mention of the word "gapless", so not sure if people have commented.

I don't remember having an issue with that. At all. So that bothers me. I listened to classical music, The Wall, etc.. should have noticed! I did not have it THAT long... so, it is possible that maybe by coincidence I did not play anything requiring gapless playback, but doubt it. TBF, it was part of my "for work" rig. So maybe I was just not paying attention.

Could anybody confirm? Does it support gapless playback?

Thanks!
Many things that can be measured cannot be heard. Actually the measurements are very close. And are good scientific measuring tools being used? Our old VW have slot loading CD player and after 18 years it is still working. Cayin makes some impressive tube amps and very reasonable price. The Tangent II player does not support gapless, but that is not mentioned about this player. Look at reviews on YT. In many years of buying and selling audio gear I never heard of gapless playing, or lack of it being a problem. I am thinking of buying this player or a used Yamaha. A HiFi shop near me has the Cayin, new for 399 Euro, and a used S300 for 100. Now to make up my mind.
 
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