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Capital Audiofest 2022 - November 11th-13th

Kachda

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I've heard that Jim Salk is debuting a new Flagship with a couple Purifi Drivers, and the Satori Be Tweet:
1668137963191-png.3357950


Dennis Murphy/Philharmonic Audio is also showing off a new prototype design BMR-HT Tower that should bring sensitivity up to around 90dB (iirc). It is featuring a pair of Purifi Drivers, a pair new Tectonic BMR Drivers and an AMT Tweet:
1668044732665-jpeg.3357560


Wish I was were there! ;)
Wow the new bmr looks incredible. But with two purifis it’s probably gonna be expensive!

@Dennis Murphy is there a version planned with the same woofer you used in the current tower (but two instead of one)?
 

TheFrator

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I took some notes on my experience yesterday- forgive me but I'm copying and pasting this from a Reddit post I made. I've been into the 2 channel side of audio for less than a year.

Link to some photos I took of the setups. I describe them in the order of the photos.

This was my first audio expo I attended and it was a blast. Unfortunately, I could only attend 1 out of the 3 days it takes place so I had to do some speed-running today. The notes I list here about each system is what I wrote down in real time in my notebook so don't expect anything elaborate / worthy of an audiophile article. This is stream of conscious from a mid-20 something dude who loves music and loves audio reproduction.

After experiencing today, I realize I could never be an audio reviewer. Most systems sounded pretty good but the duds stood out. Additionally, all systems were heard in a hotel room... so less than ideal. And I learned first hand how important the room is.

Skip the section below if you don't care about my preferences and home setup. Just giving it for context.



Context about me: I got started into audio through headphones. Found the endgame there in the Audeze LCD-5 and figured instead of paying and playing around with different headphones, it would be better to diversify into a stereo system. My current system is as follows
  • Computer with Roon connected to Schiit Bifrost 2 to Ferrum Oor/Hypsos preamp AND Project Carbon Evo record player connected to a Schiit Mani 2 to
  • Schiit Freya S preamp to
  • Benchmark AHB2 to
  • Philharmonic BMR Towers in Rosewood
  • Subwoofer: Arendal 1723 2S (this is fed by RCA from the preamp)
The Oor is my main headphone amp so I figure why not incorporate it into my stereo? Sometimes I remove it for variety's sake.

I love a neutral to mid-forward sound that leans on the dark side.

In addition to all this hardware, I use a software called Audiolense to generate convolution filters and correct for my room. It greatly improves the quality of bass and eliminates all boominess. Highly recommend it as it honestly makes this system as good as any system I heard at CAF or elsewhere. The exception to this is the Wilson Alexia V's I heard last week (and made a post about it). No system has generated such a tall soundstage.



Photos of every system I wrote about. The photos follow the order I talk about them below

Credo EV1202 - $17k/pair
  • Holographic and bass is not boomy / blurred in anyway. A lot of output from these towers and easily fill the room. Imaging was exact and pinpoint. Showcaser didn't have any streaming...

Illusio Audio Speakers - $ ??
  • Cello and drums sound great and natural. Jazz is lively and not bright at all. Dealer didn't have any music to stream :/

Salk BePure 3 (not released yet- Jim Salk said ~ $20k/pair , price subject to change)
  • This is the point where I realize I would be a terrible audio reviewer because this too sounds awesome. The system really charges the room and makes the music very tactile. Mids and highs sound right and no hint of brightness or fatigue
  • I returned to this room twice more and it proved to be my favorite passive speakers I heard at CAF. Not on the level of the Wilson Alexia V's but I think the room is really holding these (and every other) system back.

Linkwitz - $20k/system (pair of speakers + amplifiers)
  • Phenomenal sound, fast, and holographic. Bass is so tight and "in the pocket" as it is on my home system. This is an active system. They DSP to a target curve (like Dirac) but this curve is not adjustable... wtf why can't I change the curve! The people showing the system off looked at me incredulously for wanting to alter the target curve.
  • Note in post: This system stuck with me. Not because of how it sounded but with how they're locking a product . Creating a walled garden ecosystem where the user can't change the curve to their taste. I am a fan on convolution filters and fitting to a curve because I live in an apartment with terrible dimensions, so I'm not stranger to DSP. But I have 4 convolution filters I use regularly- a reference flat curve, a warmer curve, a brighter curve, and a mid-forward curve. I like to play around with the filter I used and change it up based on my mood. Linkwitz is just locking their product and don't trust their users. Anyone with a UMIK-1 and a player that accepts convolution can do what they're doing for much less e.g my system. I have no bias against active systems, I really don't. I am just biased towards locking customers out of adjusting products they pay for. Especially for $20k products. End rant.
  • Note in post post after a Reddit comment today- Maybe the system is not using DSP but ASP (analog signal processor) and that's why the demonstrators were confused by my question. Regardless, the target curve is locked in and nonadjustable.

Raidho Acoustics TD 3.8 - $109k / pair
  • Mid... most disappointing so far. Does nothing exceptional. It's not bright or bass is out of wack in anyway. It just sounds lifeless. This is a speaker...
  • Note in post: I didn't know how much these cost until looking them up and typing this. I'm glad I found a speaker this expensive that sounds meh.

Heretic Loudspeakers AD612? Or 618
  • Worst so far. One word- underwater. This speaker makes Dire Straits sound bad, which is an accomplishment.

Klipsch - didn’t catch the model
  • Bright! Actually a mix of bright and playing too loud. No resolution in the bass.

Alare Remiga 2 - $80k/pair
  • Great acoustic resolution and fills room nicely. Vocals are exceptional. Dealer wouldn't let me change the song :/
Paradigm Persona 3f - $12k/ pair
  • Sounds fine. Speakers are ok. Probably not worth whatever they cost. Got the whole room of 8 people listening to Reflection by Tool haha . I met Michael Keaton's doppelganger! I swear this dude is Michael Keaton- he denies but I'm onto you Michael. Bass and drum decay was lacking.
  • The person showcasing the room was really trying to sell me on his fancy illuminated cables. Looked up the prices for them while typing it up... $10k a cable. Go kick rocks my dude.
Kerr Acoustics k320 mk. 3 - $11k/pair
  • Listened to a whole the whole Khruangbin album Con Todo El Mundo with the dealer. Cool guy. Speakers sound correct. Bass isn't lacking and mids are lively. Not bright.
MC Audiotech - model idk , price idk
  • Brightness crept up towards the end of Perfect Darkness by Fink. Otherwise good bass and Fink's vocals are not out of place.
  • Note in post: The dude running the room, who also designs the speaker, has an ego and is one of few people who rubbed me the wrong way at the show. He scoffed at asking to play Tool and asked me why I had a notebook. Just kind of weird behavior.

Fyne Audio F18 - $8.5k/ pair
  • Acceptable. Not bright. Bass is off.

Usher ML801 - $13.5k / pair
  • Very solid tonally. Imaging is solid but did not extend beyond the speaker. Demonstrator was kind of rude.

There were some other systems I heard but didn't take notes or pictures of and I'm sure there are plenty I missed. This experience today really makes me appreciate the system I have in my room currently because nothing I heard today was enough of an improvement for the cost. I don't say this as someone that has the mindset that because it's more expensive , then it must be snake oil (the inverse snob opinion). I say this as I really appreciate the time I spent picking out my current gear and getting it just right at a price point beneath most of the speakers I heard today. The Salk's and the Wilson Alexia V are still on my mind though...
 
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Burning Sounds

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I took some notes on my experience yesterday- forgive me but I'm copying and pasting this from a Reddit post I made. I've been into the 2 channel side of audio for less than a year.

Link to some photos I took of the setups. I describe them in the order of the photos.

This was my first audio expo I attended and it was a blast. Unfortunately, I could only attend 1 out of the 3 days it takes place so I had to do some speed-running today. The notes I list here about each system is what I wrote down in real time in my notebook so don't expect anything elaborate / worthy of an audiophile article. This is stream of conscious from a mid-20 something dude who loves music and loves audio reproduction.

After experiencing today, I realize I could never be an audio reviewer. Most systems sounded pretty good but the duds stood out. Additionally, all systems were heard in a hotel room... so less than ideal. And I learned first hand how important the room is.

Skip the section below if you don't care about my preferences and home setup. Just giving it for context.



Context about me: I got started into audio through headphones. Found the endgame there in the Audeze LCD-5 and figured instead of paying and playing around with different headphones, it would be better to diversify into a stereo system. My current system is as follows
  • Computer with Roon connected to Schiit Bifrost 2 to Ferrum Oor/Hypsos preamp AND Project Carbon Evo record player connected to a Schiit Mani 2 to
  • Schiit Freya S preamp to
  • Benchmark AHB2 to
  • Philharmonic BMR Towers in Rosewood
  • Subwoofer: Arendal 1723 2S (this is fed by RCA from the preamp)
The Oor is my main headphone amp so I figure why not incorporate it into my stereo? Sometimes I remove it for variety's sake.

I love a neutral to mid-forward sound that leans on the dark side.

In addition to all this hardware, I use a software called Audiolense to generate convolution filters and correct for my room. It greatly improves the quality of bass and eliminates all boominess. Highly recommend it as it honestly makes this system as good as any system I heard at CAF or elsewhere. The exception to this is the Wilson Alexia V's I heard last week (and made a post about it). No system has generated such a tall soundstage.



Photos of every system I wrote about. The photos follow the order I talk about them below

Credo EV1202 - $17k/pair
  • Holographic and bass is not boomy / blurred in anyway. A lot of output from these towers and easily fill the room. Imaging was exact and pinpoint. Showcaser didn't have any streaming...

Illusio Audio Speakers - $ ??
  • Cello and drums sound great and natural. Jazz is lively and not bright at all. Dealer didn't have any music to stream :/

Salk BePure 3 (not released yet- Jim Salk said ~ $20k/pair , price subject to change)
  • This is the point where I realize I would be a terrible audio reviewer because this too sounds awesome. The system really charges the room and makes the music very tactile. Mids and highs sound right and no hint of brightness or fatigue
  • I returned to this room twice more and it proved to be my favorite passive speakers I heard at CAF. Not on the level of the Wilson Alexia V's but I think the room is really holding these (and every other) system back.

Linkwitz - $20k/system (pair of speakers + amplifiers)
  • Phenomenal sound, fast, and holographic. Bass is so tight and "in the pocket" as it is on my home system. This is an active system. They DSP to a target curve (like Dirac) but this curve is not adjustable... wtf why can't I change the curve! The people showing the system off looked at me incredulously for wanting to alter the target curve.
  • Note in post: This system stuck with me. Not because of how it sounded but with how they're locking a product . Creating a walled garden ecosystem where the user can't change the curve to their taste. I am a fan on convolution filters and fitting to a curve because I live in an apartment with terrible dimensions, so I'm not stranger to DSP. But I have 4 convolution filters I use regularly- a reference flat curve, a warmer curve, a brighter curve, and a mid-forward curve. I like to play around with the filter I used and change it up based on my mood. Linkwitz is just locking their product and don't trust their users. Anyone with a UMIK-1 and a player that accepts convolution can do what they're doing for much less e.g my system. I have no bias against active systems, I really don't. I am just biased towards locking customers out of adjusting products they pay for. Especially for $20k products. End rant.
  • Note in post post after a Reddit comment today- Maybe the system is not using DSP but ASP (analog signal processor) and that's why the demonstrators were confused by my question. Regardless, the target curve is locked in and nonadjustable.

Raidho Acoustics TD 3.8 - $109k / pair
  • Mid... most disappointing so far. Does nothing exceptional. It's not bright or bass is out of wack in anyway. It just sounds lifeless. This is a speaker...
  • Note in post: I didn't know how much these cost until looking them up and typing this. I'm glad I found a speaker this expensive that sounds meh.

Heretic Loudspeakers AD612? Or 618
  • Worst so far. One word- underwater. This speaker makes Dire Straits sound bad, which is an accomplishment.

Klipsch - didn’t catch the model
  • Bright! Actually a mix of bright and playing too loud. No resolution in the bass.

Alare Remiga 2 - $80k/pair
  • Great acoustic resolution and fills room nicely. Vocals are exceptional. Dealer wouldn't let me change the song :/
Paradigm Persona 3f - $12k/ pair
  • Sounds fine. Speakers are ok. Probably not worth whatever they cost. Got the whole room of 8 people listening to Reflection by Tool haha . I met Michael Keaton's doppelganger! I swear this dude is Michael Keaton- he denies but I'm onto you Michael. Bass and drum decay was lacking.
  • The person showcasing the room was really trying to sell me on his fancy illuminated cables. Looked up the prices for them while typing it up... $10k a cable. Go kick rocks my dude.
Kerr Acoustics k320 mk. 3 - $11k/pair
  • Listened to a whole the whole Khruangbin album Con Todo El Mundo with the dealer. Cool guy. Speakers sound correct. Bass isn't lacking and mids are lively. Not bright.
MC Audiotech - model idk , price idk
  • Brightness crept up towards the end of Perfect Darkness by Fink. Otherwise good bass and Fink's vocals are not out of place.
  • Note in post: The dude running the room, who also designs the speaker, has an ego and is one of few people who rubbed me the wrong way at the show. He scoffed at asking to play Tool and asked me why I had a notebook. Just kind of weird behavior.

Fyne Audio F18 - $8.5k/ pair
  • Acceptable. Not bright. Bass is off.

Usher ML801 - $13.5k / pair9
  • Very solid tonally. Imaging is solid but did not extend beyond the speaker. Demonstrator was kind of rude.

There were some other systems I heard but didn't take notes or pictures of and I'm sure there are plenty I missed. This experience today really makes me appreciate the system I have in my room currently because nothing I heard today was enough of an improvement for the cost. I don't say this as someone that has the mindset that because it's more expensive , then it must be snake oil (the inverse snob opinion). I say this as I really appreciate the time I spent picking out my current gear and getting it just right at a price point beneath most of the speakers I heard today. The Salk's and the Wilson Alexia V are still on my mind though...
Thanks for the write-up of the Linkwitz LX521.4. However, I think you are misunderstanding what you were told about the ASP. It is indeed fixed to deliver the correct xovers/EQ required for this system. But there is nothing to stop you using DSP to change/correct for your room. In fact you could use an appropriate MiniDSP product, JRiver or Roon to create the required filters for this system, avoiding the ASP completely. I use Acourate and JRiver.

And to be clear you can build these for about £5k including an 8 channel Ncore amp and an Okto DAC8 Pro.

So you are not locked into any ecosystem, this is about as flexible a system as you can get.

Not sure what's with the cable risers though...:facepalm:
 

TheFrator

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Thanks for the write-up of the Linkwitz LX521.4. However, I think you are misunderstanding what you were told about the ASP. It is indeed fixed to deliver the correct xovers/EQ required for this system. But there is nothing to stop you using DSP to change/correct for your room. In fact you could use an appropriate MiniDSP product, JRiver or Roon to create the required filters for this system, avoiding the ASP completely. I use Acourate and JRiver.

And to be clear you can build these for about £5k including an 8 channel Ncore amp and an Okto DAC8 Pro.

So you are not locked into any ecosystem, this is about as flexible a system as you can get.

Not sure what's with the cable risers though...:facepalm:
Thank you for explaining. The demonstrators were a little overwhelmed since it was a popular room so I understand them not having the time to dig into the technical weeds as much as I'd like. Now I feel bad for being misinformed and believing you're locked in.

What benefit does a system like this have over a traditional passive speaker system (DAC -> amplifier(s) -> speaker) with Dirac or other DSP option?

The cable risers are to appeal to a certain crowd that believes in that voodoo.
 

bjmsam

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Two friends and I were fortunate to have the Linkwitz room (650) mostly to ourselves when we stopped by today and thoroughly enjoyed hearing a live recording of The Double Planet by Michael Hedges, which seemed well suited.
 

magicLX

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Thanks for visiting the LINKWITZ room 650 and for the positive comments. Sorry for the confusion by not covering some topics.
Indeed, we had questions about the crossover in the PowerBox.
In the first generation of PowerBoxes, we used DSP. After thorough listening tests ASP vs DSP, we found the precisionASP to be favorable, so we switched entirely to ASP (analog signal processor). Today , all PowerBoxes (LX521 and LXsirius/LXmini) are fully analog units. By nature, an ASP comes with hard-wired filter properties.
Nevertheless, if you want to modify the target curve or do any other convolution: It’s still possible by loading your correction files into JRiver, Roon, etc. further upstream.

Best
Frank
 

TheFrator

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Thanks for visiting the LINKWITZ room 650 and for the positive comments. Sorry for the confusion by not covering some topics.
Indeed, we had questions about the crossover in the PowerBox.
In the first generation of PowerBoxes, we used DSP. After thorough listening tests ASP vs DSP, we found the precisionASP to be favorable, so we switched entirely to ASP (analog signal processor). Today , all PowerBoxes (LX521 and LXsirius/LXmini) are fully analog units. By nature, an ASP comes with hard-wired filter properties.
Nevertheless, if you want to modify the target curve or do any other convolution: It’s still possible by loading your correction files into JRiver, Roon, etc. further upstream.

Best
Frank
Thank you for replying to my comment and elaborating. I understand y'all were a busy room (rightfully so given the sound quality).

What benefit does a system like the Linkwitz with ASP have over a traditional passive speaker system (DAC -> amplifier(s) -> speaker) with Dirac / convolution / other DSP option?
 
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Linearphass

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Benefits of using active crossovers with one power amp per driver:

1. Much better control of drivers due to directly coupling drivers to low output impedance amps with VERY SHORT cables.
2. Reduced distortion in system due to each amp only having to cover only a limited frequency range. For example clipping in a bass amp has NO effect on the sound in the midrange amp.
3. Much lower interaction with complex driver impedances interacting with:
a. Passive crossover components that are nonlinear ( very common)
b. Drivers who impedance varies by drive level due to cone motion and voicecoil heating.
4. Higher system efficiency
5. Zero interactions between drivers due no coupling of driver EMF which cause on driver to modulate another.
6. Zero magnetic coupling between crossover inductors.
7. Much better control of crossover frequency, slopes, EQ, response shape, phase and much better stability.

Benefits of using ASP over DSP:
1. Reduces the numbers of DAC's needed from 8 to 2. High quality DACs with two channels are common. It is hard to find high quality 8 channel DACs. The SQ associated with inexpensive chip DAC's while good is not good enough to fully support the resolution of the 521 to allow it to perform at its best.
2. ASP allows the use of any analog sources such as Tuners, Turntables, Tape decks, etc WITHOUT having to convert the signal via yet another A>D converter in the signal path.
3. In the case of the power boxes shown there is an added advantage of allowing for a full systems level approach so they control more variables making them thing you don't have to worry about at all. The power boxes contain 10 power amplifiers, 8 channels of crossover, 8 channels of COMPLEX EQ, phase compensation, and multiple channels of very high quality power supply. Additionally being all in 2 boxes, one per side, all the interconnects are in the box avoiding the reduction in reliability that inevitable that comes from having that many cables and connectors. Ground loops and other wiring issues are designed out. System noise level is reduced.

As has been said above there is zero restriction of applying any desired user curves using any hardware/ software device the user chooses to use. Dirac is one such solution and it is good but there are better solutions that are available. 521 users are in this regard offered a very flexible solution space. I personally use ROON convolution and an external convolution generator so all the signal processing occurs in the digital domain with no intermediate A>D D>A conversions.

As an aside I personally measured many sytem responses at the show and can attest that the room that I measured had significant issues. Much worse than the typical home issues I see. I also have heard the 521's in more typical rooms and they sound much batter than the show sound.

Hope this helps.
 

cavedriver

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Got to visit the show for about 5 hours on Friday. Ran around and tried to hear all the rooms I thought would be worth my time but did not spend enough time in several rooms.

For where I was coming from, just background: I was looking for 20k and under speakers, splitting the budget between two rooms to splurge on either maximum accuracy and performance where amp output is unlimited, to go in our movie room and double as the fronts in a surround setup, or funnel the budget into a pair of high-efficiency speakers I can enjoy with a couple different tube amps, ranging from a Scott 296 with 50 wpc down to a 300B SET amp with the typical 8 watts/channel.

Van Schweikert Endeavor References (the "small" room upstairs, $20k/pair) - In a word, wow. I think reviewers of the show are going to be saying some really positive things about these. It was one of the best pairs of speakers I heard. Super-clean beryllium tweeters, great soundstage, plenty of speed, muscle, and excellent voicing. Coming from having some Snell E/III's with the rear "atmosphere" tweeters I was really enjoying the (defeatable) rear AMT-type tweeters on these and the extra-deep soundstage it gave them. It also probably didn't hurt that they were driving them with a $65k 8x 845 tube 200 w/ch VAC amp. What a beast. These are near the top of my list right now.

Perlisten S7T (also $20k/pair) - these were excellent sounding speakers, big, fast, accurate, clean, gave the VS's a run for it, will be listening to them more. Industrial design was a bit intense and may fail the WAF.

Scansonic MB6 B ($15k/pair) - clean, fast, tight, clean highs, good imaging, maybe a little anemic in the bass, and just generally less "wow" factor than the VS's and the Perlisten's. I might listen to them more.

Salk Bepure 3 ($20k/pair) - I probably should have listened to these more since I don't think I'll get a chance to hear them again soon. Big wow factor. The beryllium tweeters were crisp and clear and sounded great, very exciting speaker to listen to, great big clean atmospheric sound, really need to spend more time with these and other Salk's.

Fyne F1-8 (9k/pair?) very briefly listened to these, seemed dull, really looking forward to hearing their 702/3/4 speakers because I was favorably impressed with certain aspects of their 502SP previously. Not sure I understand the point of a stand mounter at this price point and where was the dynamicism?

Philharmonic HT (price TBD) -very excited about these but Dennis said he's still tweaking them. I listened but will reserve judgement until Dennis says they're ready. So far very encouraging, and the BMR monitors and towers continued to wow everyone that hears them, myself included. Hi-gloss finishes are a non-starter in our home though :(

Mofi Sourcepoint 10 ($3700/pair) -already wrote a little about these in the thread on them. So far very promising, but room and crowds were holding back a proper judgement. I really like the design and what I heard so far, need to listen to them more. Might be a winner.

Paradigm Persona 3F ($12k/pair) - Paradigm's were a great price point speaker back in the 90's, I think they used Scanspeak and Vifa drivers back then (?). These seemed competent, probably measure well, but didn't pull at my heart or make me want to plop down 12k for them.

Volti Rival (price?) - a 3-way super-high efficiency speaker with a 15" woofer and horn-loaded mid and tweeter, so a little like a big Klipsch. Played plenty loud driven with a 16 wpc SET tube amp, but of course the tubes just couldn't keep those 15" woofers reined in and the bass was sadly tubby.

Dolce Vita Sogna's ($12k/pair) a very strange Italian speaker, kind of a 1.5-way with most of the sound coming from a single ~10" full-range driver with a separate sort of super-tweeter that comes in above 12k. Wooden baffles on the front supposedly disperse the sound and prevent beaming from the single drivers. Sound was surprisingly flat (even) and even decently good although I shudder to think how they measure. I assume the efficiency is high enough for the SET tube scenario but there's no way in hell I would buy these without access to serious listening time.

Audio Note AN-E LX ($10k/pair) - Basically updated and improved versions of my E/III's. They lack the rear tweeters (or at least this model did) but benefit from 94+ dB efficiency, better components and beautiful cabinets. At moderate volumes they were liquid smooth with great immediacy and avoided the softness in the bass that the old Snells suffer from.

Devore Gibbon Super Nine's ($10k/pair?) - I wasn't at all surprised to hear how good these sounded given everything I had read about them. They definitely had the immediacy, accuracy, and soundstage I hoped for, really great sounding speakers, but they are too inefficient for the weaker tube amps and too small for the movie room. I really need to listen to the Orangutans.

I did not listen to the Linkwitz but open back drivers above sub enclosures so I assume all the advantages and disadvantages of those designs. Room was busy when I went by and they were delivering the sales pitch so I skipped it. I briefly stood in a bunch of other rooms but there were plenty of 50k+ speakers that made no sense to hear.
 
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magicLX

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Thank you for replying to my comment and elaborating. I understand y'all were a busy room (rightfully so given the sound quality).

What benefit does a system like the Linkwitz with ASP have over a traditional passive speaker system (DAC -> amplifier(s) -> speaker) with Dirac / convolution / other DSP option?
Siegfried Linkwitz:
"...The only excuse for passive crossovers is their low cost. Their behavior changes with the signal level dependent dynamics of the drivers. They block the power amplifier from taking maximum control over the voice coil motion. They are a waste of time, if accuracy of reproduction is the goal."

Read more here https://www.linkwitzlab.com/crossovers.htm
and FAQs here https://linkwitz.store/blog/2022/05/16/faqs-about-the-lx521-system/
 

Severian

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I attended on Friday afternoon and thought this was the best year of Capital Audiofest yet. The Linkwitz setup blew me away. Philharmonic room a highlight as always - the new HT towers are really great. The Mofi Sourcepoint 10 was my other favorite of the day.
 

Capitol C

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The last time I went to a show was before the pandemic. One thing has definitely improved, there are more people who are not, like me, ancient, and there were even a reasonable number of women at the show. Both are good signs for the field.

One thing hasn't changed, though. With real respect to the people above who wrote reviews of speakers, how in the world did you do it? The rooms were not good, mostly small single hotel rooms with the headboards still attached to the wall, with some very large meeting rooms, both nothing like a listening room. The volumes were generally just a bit too loud, which I call the Fletcher-Munson fix. And the choice of music was wrong if you want to compare speakers. There were recordings where the bass guitar was louder than a full orchestra, recordings with special effects thrown in, rock and pop recordings of obscure groups, female vocalists with the mic so close that you can tell if they have tonsils or not,... I listened in a lot of rooms, and it was very rare to hear an accurate recording of acoustic music. Whatever music you like to listen too, small-ensemble jazz, chamber music, natural percussion instruments, organs, pianos, symphony orchestras, well-recorded voices ..., are the best way to judge speaker quality.

Add to all this that speakers with excellent reputations were being played through magic cables (cryogenically-treated connectors with special cable lifters!) and magic amps (ooh, look at the pretty glow!), and it was easy to get discouraged again about the state of the field.
 

TheFrator

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With real respect to the people above who wrote reviews of speakers, how in the world did you do it?
In my comment above with some reviews of systems, I made sure to point out how terrible of an audio reviewer I'd be. Because there were only a few systems that I found offensive. I certainly don't have a golden ear nor lots of experience in 2-channel so I have a ways to go in this hobby.
 

TheFrator

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Benefits of using active crossovers with one power amp per driver:

1. Much better control of drivers due to directly coupling drivers to low output impedance amps with VERY SHORT cables.
2. Reduced distortion in system due to each amp only having to cover only a limited frequency range. For example clipping in a bass amp has NO effect on the sound in the midrange amp.
3. Much lower interaction with complex driver impedances interacting with:
a. Passive crossover components that are nonlinear ( very common)
b. Drivers who impedance varies by drive level due to cone motion and voicecoil heating.
4. Higher system efficiency
5. Zero interactions between drivers due no coupling of driver EMF which cause on driver to modulate another.
6. Zero magnetic coupling between crossover inductors.
7. Much better control of crossover frequency, slopes, EQ, response shape, phase and much better stability.

Benefits of using ASP over DSP:
1. Reduces the numbers of DAC's needed from 8 to 2. High quality DACs with two channels are common. It is hard to find high quality 8 channel DACs. The SQ associated with inexpensive chip DAC's while good is not good enough to fully support the resolution of the 521 to allow it to perform at its best.
2. ASP allows the use of any analog sources such as Tuners, Turntables, Tape decks, etc WITHOUT having to convert the signal via yet another A>D converter in the signal path.
3. In the case of the power boxes shown there is an added advantage of allowing for a full systems level approach so they control more variables making them thing you don't have to worry about at all. The power boxes contain 10 power amplifiers, 8 channels of crossover, 8 channels of COMPLEX EQ, phase compensation, and multiple channels of very high quality power supply. Additionally being all in 2 boxes, one per side, all the interconnects are in the box avoiding the reduction in reliability that inevitable that comes from having that many cables and connectors. Ground loops and other wiring issues are designed out. System noise level is reduced.

As has been said above there is zero restriction of applying any desired user curves using any hardware/ software device the user chooses to use. Dirac is one such solution and it is good but there are better solutions that are available. 521 users are in this regard offered a very flexible solution space. I personally use ROON convolution and an external convolution generator so all the signal processing occurs in the digital domain with no intermediate A>D D>A conversions.

As an aside I personally measured many sytem responses at the show and can attest that the room that I measured had significant issues. Much worse than the typical home issues I see. I also have heard the 521's in more typical rooms and they sound much batter than the show sound.

Hope this helps.
It does certainly help. Thank you very much for answering and teaching me something today. I really appreciate it.

Is there anyway you could share the measurements of the 521 in the room at CAF and elsewhere?
 
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magicLX

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The dipole woofers have an 4.8db advantage when it comes to room nodes due to their radiation pattern. https://www.linkwitzlab.com/listening_room.htm
So you need only mild correction, if any.
The CAF room was rather small and showed slight nodes at 32Hz and 64Hz, that could be addressed in the digital domain.
 

cavedriver

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One thing hasn't changed, though. With real respect to the people above who wrote reviews of speakers, how in the world did you do it? The rooms were not good, mostly small single hotel rooms with the headboards still attached to the wall, with some very large meeting rooms, both nothing like a listening room.
I make no claims about my speaker-listener ability :) But seriously, yeah, going into a show you know you won't be making any buying-level decisions. Acoustics suck, very limited or no control over play lists or ability to A/B speakers, limited time. For me it's mainly an exercise in judging where it's worth searching out a speaker to listen to seriously or not. Since the collapse of hifi stores in America getting to listen to this or that specific speaker now means 3+ hour drives to find the few remaining dealers where you can hear them. So you go to the show and listen more for flaws, weaknesses, and potential. Nothing definitive and with a giant grain of salt along the way.

Whatever music you like to listen too, small-ensemble jazz, chamber music, natural percussion instruments, organs, pianos, symphony orchestras, well-recorded voices ..., are the best way to judge speaker quality.
I don't think I agree. The data posted here by Amir from harman kardon's blind testing and listeners' ability to detect differences in speakers clearly supports my first hand experience that dense rock with vocals is quite effective at distinguishing speakers. Put another way, Atlantic's recording of Immigrant Song might be one of the lower-fi things you could demo a speaker with but if it sounds bad on a given system why even listen to all the pretty well-recorded jazz and classical music? Fwiw, yes, of course, I won't buy a pair of speakers that don't play my test tracks of most music beautifully, but other tracks are surprisingly quick at weeding out a lot of speakers. The single greatest factor for me is that, given limited time, I have to know the recordings really well. I'm not a musician that can say, "the third violin sounds out of tune in the A string", but I can listen to Voodoo Chile and say, "Hendrix's voice should sound like this during this stretch". In this regard we are probably in complete agreement that the setup at audio shows is a hugely ineffective way to judge speakers. For example, I didn't mention that Van Schweikert had a "closed" playlist and was even hogging the control so that I couldn't get them to play pieces that I felt would betray the limits of their speakers or expose any weaknesses. The hotel's internet was maxed out so this was a good decision for them, but without the ability to choose the music the ability to judge their speakers with any finality was impossible.
 

cport101

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Linkwitz - $20k/system (pair of speakers + amplifiers)
Phenomenal sound, fast, and holographic. Bass is so tight and "in the pocket" as it is on my home system. This is an active system. They DSP to a target curve (like Dirac) but this curve is not adjustable... wtf why can't I change the curve! The people showing the system off looked at me incredulously for wanting to alter the target curve.
Note in post: This system stuck with me. Not because of how it sounded but with how they're locking a product . Creating a walled garden ecosystem where the user can't change the curve to their taste. I am a fan on convolution filters and fitting to a curve because I live in an apartment with terrible dimensions, so I'm not stranger to DSP. But I have 4 convolution filters I use regularly- a reference flat curve, a warmer curve, a brighter curve, and a mid-forward curve. I like to play around with the filter I used and change it up based on my mood. Linkwitz is just locking their product and don't trust their users. Anyone with a UMIK-1 and a player that accepts convolution can do what they're doing for much less e.g my system. I have no bias against active systems, I really don't. I am just biased towards locking customers out of adjusting products they pay for. Especially for $20k products. End rant.
Note in post post after a Reddit comment today- Maybe the system is not using DSP but ASP (analog signal processor) and that's why the demonstrators were confused by my question. Regardless, the target curve is locked in and nonadjustable.
Slightly inaccurate -- the ASP (Analogue System Processor) is "analogue" and cannot be directly "tuned", so that statement is true, but this does not preclude one from making corrections if using digital sources -- as a matter of fact, the NAS system used with the LINN streamer (the principle source at CAF 2022) had several convolution files applied to correct for the room, which had pronounced nodes at 32 Hz and 64 Hz, which is why it sounded slightly boomy when I switched to CD 's. My opinion is aligned with Dr. Brenner's [LINKWITZ owner] -- the ASP sound significantly better than the DSP versions (which are still available), which is why they are used when LINKWITZ demo's the new LX521.4MG's.

Charles Port
LINKWITZ Team member
Eastern Linkwitz Lounge
 
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kemmler3D

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One thing has definitely improved, there are more people who are not, like me, ancient, and there were even a reasonable number of women at the show. Both are good signs for the field.
That's great news, women in this hobby are shockingly rare today.
One thing hasn't changed, though. With real respect to the people above who wrote reviews of speakers, how in the world did you do it? The rooms were not good, mostly small single hotel rooms with the headboards still attached to the wall, with some very large meeting rooms, both nothing like a listening room.
+1 to this, when I went to some of the high end rooms at CES once, it was the same deal. $100K+ worth of gear in a room, $0-100 worth of acoustic treatment. Would it kill these people to lug a few bass traps and diffusors to the show?
The volumes were generally just a bit too loud, which I call the Fletcher-Munson fix. And the choice of music was wrong if you want to compare speakers. There were recordings where the bass guitar was louder than a full orchestra, recordings with special effects thrown in, rock and pop recordings of obscure groups, female vocalists with the mic so close that you can tell if they have tonsils or not,... I listened in a lot of rooms, and it was very rare to hear an accurate recording of acoustic music. Whatever music you like to listen too, small-ensemble jazz, chamber music, natural percussion instruments, organs, pianos, symphony orchestras, well-recorded voices ..., are the best way to judge speaker quality.

Add to all this that speakers with excellent reputations were being played through magic cables (cryogenically-treated connectors with special cable lifters!) and magic amps (ooh, look at the pretty glow!), and it was easy to get discouraged again about the state of the field.
Well, you have to evaluate the speaker based on audio, not music. Verisimilitude relative to a live performance is a way to evaluate the audible gestalt, but for me critical listening is more about evaluating one piece at a time - frequency range by frequency range, then distortion, then dynamic response. IMO you can do this with any given song as long as it has enough energy to reveal flaws in those areas.

The overall impression matters most in the end, but if you're trying to compare speakers I think it helps to zero in on specifics.

To put it another way, you can tell a great deal about a speaker by listening to test tones if they'll let you, and this could not be any less like a recording of live music.
 

jhaider

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Active crossovers are great, but let's not get way out over our skis here.

Benefits of using active crossovers with one power amp per driver:

1. Much better control of drivers due to directly coupling drivers to low output impedance amps with VERY SHORT cables.
2. Reduced distortion in system due to each amp only having to cover only a limited frequency range. For example clipping in a bass amp has NO effect on the sound in the midrange amp.
3. Much lower interaction with complex driver impedances interacting with:
a. Passive crossover components that are nonlinear ( very common)
b. Drivers who impedance varies by drive level due to cone motion and voicecoil heating.
4. Higher system efficiency
5. Zero interactions between drivers due no coupling of driver EMF which cause on driver to modulate another.
6. Zero magnetic coupling between crossover inductors.
7. Much better control of crossover frequency, slopes, EQ, response shape, phase and much better stability.

1. Is obviously wrong, or at any rate the result of multiple invalid assumptions. One can of course have active speakers with VERY LONG cables because the equipment is in a different room, on an entirely different floor. The only time they're shorter than usual is in the case of a plate amp speaker. Given that LX-521 was not shown with a plate amp on the "cabinet" and the spec does not contemplate a plate amp. this argument is odd to even include let alone make the starting point of your framing.

2. Well...a growing body of knowledge suggests certain passive filters may offer distortion benefits that equivalent active filters may not. See, e.g. Purifi notch filter white paper. Interestingly, Purifi's paper is also somewhat an admission against interest, given Purifi sells (great!) amp modules and would doubtless prefer to have the story be "use an active crossover with our driver, and double up on amp modules!"

3a. Matters if you're using pathologically garbage amps. If not... (If you reframed this as "amp quality can be markedly worse with no real world performance penalty for the system" then I'd give you the point.)
3b. Um, no. The driver still sheds heat and the cone still moves.

5-6. Irrelevant audiophool gobbledegook

Overall you get 2/8 here: 4 (passive = some loss by definition) and 7 (especially if using modern technology, i.e. DSP) are reasonable points.

Benefits of using ASP over DSP:
1. <...>High quality DACs with two channels are common. It is hard to find high quality 8 channel DACs. The SQ associated with inexpensive chip DAC's while good is not good enough to fully support the resolution of the 521 to allow it to perform at its best.
2. ASP allows the use of any analog sources such as Tuners, Turntables, Tape decks, etc WITHOUT having to convert the signal via yet another A>D converter in the signal path.
3. In the case of the power boxes shown there is an added advantage of allowing for a full systems level approach so they control more variables making them thing you don't have to worry about at all. The power boxes contain 10 power amplifiers, 8 channels of crossover, 8 channels of COMPLEX EQ, phase compensation, and multiple channels of very high quality power supply. Additionally being all in 2 boxes, one per side, all the interconnects are in the box avoiding the reduction in reliability that inevitable that comes from having that many cables and connectors. Ground loops and other wiring issues are designed out. System noise level is reduced.

1. The only benefit of 2 DAC channels over of 8 is cost of DAC. Give that bespoke analog circuitry is bound to be a lot more expensive than mere DACs (which are cheap - elite performance is >$800 for 2 channels if you want 4V balanced outs, and half that if 2V unbalanced outs will suffice) + reliable off-the-shelf DSP, that is a fairly extreme form of false economy.

2. OK, but possibly at a resolution penalty compared to a good ADC and digital processing. Also, you'll get better real-world sound quality from analog sources by digitizing them because you can then employ room correction, loudness compensation, and so on.

3. An individual LX521 could be processed and EQ'ed by many commercially-available 3-way plate amps, with greater flexibility than analog circuits can provide. (To my knowledge the EQ for the bass units is the same, so there's little reason to use a second amp channel if you can get the required voltage at the drive impedance. For that matter, with modern processing and amplification one could put it all in one box for the stereo pair with an output for additional subs, instead of dividing the electronics in half

So that's 0 for 3, 1 for 3 if grading on a curve and giving you 2 even though it's irrelevant.

The advantages of analog crossover/EQ over DSP are
(a) Better press from the dumber audio influencers, who are easily swayed by frothy buzzwords
(b) Sound quality phobic audiophiles will pay more for it a bespoke analog kit than for an equal or better commercially-available drop-in digital board
(c) Serviceability, maybe
 

bjmsam

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$100K+ worth of gear in a room, $0-100 worth of acoustic treatment. Would it kill these people to lug a few bass traps and diffusors to the show?

Acoustics suck, very limited or no control over play lists or ability to A/B speakers, limited time.

The rooms were not good, mostly small single hotel rooms with the headboards still attached to the wall, with some very large meeting rooms, both nothing like a listening room.
...
Add to all this that speakers with excellent reputations were being played through magic cables (cryogenically-treated connectors with special cable lifters!) and magic amps (ooh, look at the pretty glow!), and it was easy to get discouraged again about the state of the field.

I completely agree, attended with expectations managed, wasted no time on several rooms that were ridiculously over the top (feasts for eyes more than ears), and appreciated more sensible rooms such as the aforementioned one sponsored by the DC HiFi Group (highlighted in the video below with candid discussion of some of these issues). Imagine a room sponsored by ASR next year, perhaps with a few systems hidden behind an AT curtain? :cool:

 
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