Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Sal1950]

I could go on and on and on, but not in the least bit sure you'd be interested Apologies if I've gone on too long already.

Naw, I was just curious and suprised as to why you were finding them "too dull/laid back to me now".
I've been out of the market for so long but back in the day I found expensive MC's like my Dynavetor Rudy and Supex 900 Super to be a bit too bright and edgy though capable of exposing excellent inner detail. In the end I always found myself gravitating back to TOTL Stanton's like my 881S and 681EEE and their ability to track at low pressures, etc.
In the end that's a big part of what I hate about vinyl, everything does sound different. The needles and their loading, the preamps-prepreamps and settings for MM or MC, everything is all over the place with no standard to even know what's coming out of the grooves is even flat to the master tape.
At least the Stantons came in a sexy walnut box with a individual test calibration file.

 

[Sal1950]

I’m not going to rush to any conclusions, but there a distinct difference between the tonal balance on acoustic instrument recordings and electrified instruments recordings.

There mostly always will be, it's difficult to impossible to cut a LP without major modifications to the sound that hit the mixing board. You can do that with digital, not a LP.

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

 

[atmasphere]

I've been out of the market for so long but back in the day I found expensive MC's like my Dynavetor Rudy and Supex 900 Super to be a bit too bright and edgy though capable of exposing excellent inner detail.

Its unlikely those cartridges had any problems like that and highly likely that the ultrasonic peak they generated was messing with the input section of your phono preamp. Most designers simply thought that you had to have enough gain, low enough noise and proper EQ and so were home free. It doesn't work that way- you need good high frequency overload characteristics and RFI immunity too. If you have those things then that brightness (imparted by distortion) goes away. If you had loaded those cartridges with a 'loading' resistor the ultrasonic peak could have been detuned resulting in the same thing. That's why its a common practice now, but most people don't stop to think (or are ignorant) of the actual reason why this happens.

 

[antcollinet]

What type of needles were/are you fav poison, MM, MC ?


So much music, so little time.
With vinyl the "fiddling" is constant and never ends.
Just to play a "record" requires like 5 minutes of fiddling having to get the record on the table, clean it. clean the needle. set the tonearm in position and lower it. Then jump up to raise the arm, flip to the other side and go thru the whole ritual all over again. I'm getting tired just thinking about it. LOL

Some of us younger folk simply have more energy.

 

[antcollinet]

Please see discussion of high frequency 'restoring' apps here (and NB that they are discussing frequencies within the audible range, where it could actually make a difference)

https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/lmjw8u/is_it_possible_to_restore_high_frequencies_in_a

Mostly they seem to be talking about saturation - adding harmonic distortion. Can alter the sound but obviously have nothing to do with the actual information that has been already discarded..

 

[Sal1950]

Besides, fiddling with a TT is a sort of charm enjoyed by the user. If you do not have any intrinsic interest in TTs, then I see no reason to want or own one.

Correct, I'm interested in playing back the highest quality music source available.
I lost all interest TT's after owning my first CD,

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms 1985 Warner
My God, what a revelation that first playing was.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Brothers In Arms / Artist: Dire Straits
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR20 -0.00 dB -22.32 dB 5:12 01 - So Far Away [flac]
DR19 -0.00 dB -22.10 dB 8:25 02 - Money For Nothing [flac]
DR13 -5.95 dB -22.26 dB 4:12 03 - Walk Of Life [flac]
DR14 -7.78 dB -25.43 dB 6:33 04 - Your Latest Trick [flac]
DR13 -12.70 dB -29.28 dB 8:31 05 - Why Worry [flac]
DR17 -2.43 dB -24.16 dB 6:58 06 - Ride Across The River [flac]
DR14 -2.18 dB -22.97 dB 4:40 07 - The Man's Too Strong [flac]
DR18 -0.00 dB -20.96 dB 3:39 08 - One World [flac]
DR15 -4.00 dB -24.67 dB 6:54 09 - Brothers In Arms [flac]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 9
Official DR value: DR16

Sampling rate: 44100 Hz
Average bitrate: 691kbs
Bits per sample: 16 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16

If you had loaded those cartridges with a 'loading' resistor the ultrasonic peak could have been detuned resulting in the same thing.

I've been doing things like that since the 1970s and have a vague idea on proper loading.

Some of us younger folk simply have more energy.

Now that's a fact !!! LOL

 

[krabapple]

Mostly they seem to be talking about saturation - adding harmonic distortion. Can alter the sound but obviously have nothing to do with the actual information that has been already discarded..

Well of course, that's why I (and some there on Reddit) said you can't actually 'restore' content that was never captured. You can only make guesses -- in the Reddit cases based on what's still there. The result may or may not constitute a euphonic distortion. AI will be able to this more 'intelligently', but it will never be the same as 'what was lost'.

But that's for actually audible 'restoration'. The gimmick Dz is talking about isn't even audible, unless it's actually changing something in the audible range.

 

[Petrushka]

Well of course, that's why I (and some there on Reddit) said you can't actually 'add back' content that was never captured. You can only make guesses, in the Reddit cases based on what's still there. The result may or may not constitute a euphonic distortion.

But that's for actually audible 'restoration'. The gimmick Dz is talking about isn't even audible, unless it's actually changing something in the audible range.

AI could analyze the instruments and recreate overtones. They are almost the same as even harmonic distortion. Depending on the instrument.

 

[antcollinet]

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms 1985 Warner

The first CD I ever bought. And it was stunning. It still is.

I can still remember the first time I heard the title track - driving to pickup my then girlfriend (now wife) from the train station. I was mesmerised.

 

[antcollinet]

You can only make guesses

You can't even make guesses. There is nothing to base those guesses on.

I guess technically if you had software that could deconstruct the music fully into separate voices and instruments, you could adjust the sound of each instrument individually to create all the missing harmonics/timbre (if any) that that instrument should have. But even then it wouldn't be what was in the room with the microphone - it would be an idealised representation of that instrument. Perhaps you could change every violin in the orchestra to a Stradivarius. Perhaps one day soon AI will be able to do that.

But just by processing a time domain signal. No - that is just adding random stuff.

 

[Petrushka]

You can't even make guesses. There is nothing to base those guesses on.

I guess technically if you had software that could deconstruct the music fully into separate voices and instruments, you could adjust the sound of each instrument individually to create all the missing timbre (if any) that that instrument should have. But even then it wouldn't be what was in the room with the microphone - it would be an idealised representation of that instrument. Perhaps you could change every violin in the orchestra to a Stradivarius. Perhaps one day soon AI will be able to do that.

But just by processing a time domain signal. No - that is just adding random stuff.

It’s coming. The AI servers will fry the planet, but we’ll have perfect music. With occasional hallucinations.

 

[krabapple]

You can't even make guesses. There is nothing to base those guesses on.

I think this is overly pedantic. Even those tools discussed in the thread are basing their guesses on *what is there*.

e.g. for a 'Harmonic Exciter':

What Is an Exciter?​

An exciter (a harmonic exciter or aural exciter) is an audio signal processing technique that enhances a signal by dynamic equalization, phase manipulation, and harmonic synthesis of (usually) high-frequency signals. It also adds subtle harmonic distortion. Dynamic equalization involves a variation of the equalizer characteristics in the time domain as a function of the input. Due to the varying nature, it reduces more noise compared to static equalizers. Harmonic synthesis involves the creation of higher-order harmonics from the fundamental frequency signals present in the recording. The harmonics are derived from a purer frequency band because noise is usually more prevalent at higher frequencies. This results in clearer highs. Exciters can also synthesize harmonics of low-frequency signals to simulate deep bass in smaller speakers.

I mean, obviously, if anything is claiming to be based on 'harmonics' it means there's frequency content there already to base it on. Random frequencies could only accidentally be 'harmonics' of the base content.

 

[antcollinet]

I think this is overly pedantic. Even those tools discussed in the thread are basing their guesses on *what is there*.

e.g. for a 'Harmonic Exciter':

What Is an Exciter?​

An exciter (a harmonic exciter or aural exciter) is an audio signal processing technique that enhances a signal by dynamic equalization, phase manipulation, and harmonic synthesis of (usually) high-frequency signals. It also adds subtle harmonic distortion. Dynamic equalization involves a variation of the equalizer characteristics in the time domain as a function of the input. Due to the varying nature, it reduces more noise compared to static equalizers. Harmonic synthesis involves the creation of higher-order harmonics from the fundamental frequency signals present in the recording. The harmonics are derived from a purer frequency band because noise is usually more prevalent at higher frequencies. This results in clearer highs. Exciters can also synthesize harmonics of low-frequency signals to simulate deep bass in smaller speakers.

Maybe this is semantics. But "guessing" to me, implies "guessing what was there in the first place' The exciter is doing nothing of the sort. It is simply adding/changing stuff. Basically an effects box. Perhaps very clever in terms of the effect it creates. But still totally unrelated to the information that has been discarded.

 

[Robin L]

You can't even make guesses. There is nothing to base those guesses on.

I guess technically if you had software that could deconstruct the music fully into separate voices and instruments, you could adjust the sound of each instrument individually to create all the missing harmonics/timbre (if any) that that instrument should have. But even then it wouldn't be what was in the room with the microphone - it would be an idealised representation of that instrument. Perhaps you could change every violin in the orchestra to a Stradivarius. Perhaps one day soon AI will be able to do that.

But just by processing a time domain signal. No - that is just adding random stuff.

Except:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/with-a-little-help-from-ai-giles-martin-re-releases-the-beatles-revolver-180981060/

. . " a technological breakthrough occurred during the production of Peter Jackson’s documentary Get Back, which was released last year. The film follows the Beatles as they record what would eventually become their final album, Let It Be, and give their last-ever performance together. To make it, Jackson’s team developed technology that allowed them to split mono tracks into their separate parts—a guitar on one track, vocals on another, and so on.

The new technology relies on artificial intelligence and machine learning, Martin tells BBC News’ Mark Savage. “It has to learn what the sound of John Lennon's guitar is, for instance, and the more information you can give it, the better it becomes . . ."

 

[Robin L]

Maybe this is semantics. But "guessing" to me, implies "guessing what was there in the first place' The exciter is doing nothing of the sort. It is simply adding/changing stuff. Basically an effects box. Perhaps very clever in terms of the effect it creates. But still totally unrelated to the information that has been discarded.

I recall the Aphex Aural Exciter as being a device that added harmonic distortion, in use in the 1970s.

 

[antcollinet]

The first CD I ever bought. And it was stunning. It still is.

I can still remember the first time I heard the title track - driving to pickup my then girlfriend (now wife) from the train station. I was mesmerised.

Now that is bizarre. Radio paraidse is now streaming "Ride Across the River" at me. I don't remember hearing anything from BIA on RP before. Although I've probably just not noticed due to not posting about it just before it being played

 

[antcollinet]

Except:

Ok - so the AI is already here. Playing catchup is the story of my life.

EDIT : I like this quote from the article..

Martin himself doesn’t entirely understand the process, he admits to Variety’s Chris Willman. “I don’t know how it’s done!” he says. “It’s like I’m giving them a cake and they’re giving me flour, eggs, and milk and some sugar.”

 

[Sal1950]

The AI servers will fry the planet

They best be careful
I shoot back !

 

[Count Dacula]

These folks been hitting the opiate pipe too much. LOL
My keyboard has 88 keys

I never said to count on me for music theory, however... Pythagoras gives us the octaves, but ancient Asian musical notation is different. Scotty uses Mideastern chords and scales. Goodall's series is highly recommended.....

 

[DSJR]

Naw, I was just curious and suprised as to why you were finding them "too dull/laid back to me now".
I've been out of the market for so long but back in the day I found expensive MC's like my Dynavetor Rudy and Supex 900 Super to be a bit too bright and edgy though capable of exposing excellent inner detail. In the end I always found myself gravitating back to TOTL Stanton's like my 881S and 681EEE and their ability to track at low pressures, etc.
In the end that's a big part of what I hate about vinyl, everything does sound different. The needles and their loading, the preamps-prepreamps and settings for MM or MC, everything is all over the place with no standard to even know what's coming out of the grooves is even flat to the master tape.
At least the Stantons came in a sexy walnut box with a individual test calibration file.

All I had left was a 681EEE stylus in a drawer up in the loft (the first of many sets of drawers/boxes of 'bits/crap' I've accumulated over the years). I found a 680AL body to put it in and set it up in a cartridge carrier so I could try it, again very recently. This one tracks best at 1.25g (we routinely chucked the brushes which 'play' the record too) and mine has a clear but 'restrained' balance to this day. The 881S I loved originally, but UK tastes were moving to the infamous Linn LP12/Grace 707 and Soooooopex 900E, so solid-plinth direct drives, Shure/Stantons and so on, tended to back right away for us (I can't really remember what other pickups we sold in the late 70s but Ortofon and ADC were popular I remember (ADC XLM, Sonus Blue descendent, Ortofon FF15Es by the hundred (literally) as we did a special with these fitted in a lower cost Dual, a perfectly usable AT based elliptical tip model all but chucked away - I have a new one here and you might like it as it's clear but not at all acidic)

Enjoy your Stantons if you still have them The fact that vinyl's all over the place is obviously a given, but it means that eejits like me can play. Mounted in carriers from my last '(mis)adventures with pickups are an ADC ZLM, Ortofon Super OM10, the 681EEE, Shure V15 III, B&O MMC 20CL and Ortofon/Dual M20E (not sure if it's a VMS20E II in drag, or the better M20E Super).