Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[thecheapseats]

...I'm apologize for stooping to that joke! I realize that the remuneration of artists, composers, and their "enablers" (e.g., producers) in the digital/streaming era is a very serious issue!...

no apology necessary - unfortunately, it's a sad economic trainwreck that many creators and artists won't survive...

 

[restorer-john]

if you enjoy being served a once-fine meal, redistributed cold in a brown paper bag and eating it with a plastic fork - go for it...

What a ridiculous analogy.

 

[thecheapseats]

What a ridiculous analogy.

glad you enjoyed it...

 

[MattHooper]

What a ridiculous analogy.

Very strange Indeed.

And remember, we’re told nobody is ridiculing us for enjoying vinyl.

“I don’t like other people liking something I don’t like.”

 

[Snoopy]

I appreciate every medium that offers me music I wouldn't get somewhere else.
This might be due license issues or regional restrictions.

Of course there is high shipping fees, import fees if you have this stuff shipped around half the world. For that reason I prefer digital files . But if nothing else is available.. it's either a30- 40 year old LP or CD Versus nothing..

 

[mhardy6647]

no apology necessary - unfortunately, it's a sad economic trainwreck that many creators and artists won't survive...

I can't bring myself to click "like" as a response, so I'll simply quote your post and express my concurrence. Sad but almost certainly true.

 

[mhardy6647]

Once nice thing about records -- they'll play anywhere in the world. No "regional codes" or other lockouts arising from the Byzantine schemes of content licensing.

This well-known and very poignant photograph from Syria and taken ca. 2017 is not offered as a misguided attempt at humor.

Photo of a Syrian man listening to records in his bombed-out bedroom is about life, not war

The image has spread widely across the Internet of a man listening to a gramophone in what’s left of his bedroom in Aleppo, Syria. The AFP photographer, Joseph Eid, thinks he knows why it struck a chord with so many.

www.pbs.org

“There are two means of refuge from the misery of life — music and cats.”
― Albert Schweitzer

 

[JP]

Apparently, if we call a spade a spade, that act alone will convince members of the Spade Appreciation Society that we hate both spades and their users. However ridiculous the idea is, the fact that some people see factual statements about a tool that way tells us that bias can create delusions.

My read of the back and forth isn't that there's an issue with calling a spade a spade, it's an issue with calling a spade a spoon, and pretending that you're not. If we take Sal's latest laundry list:

Surface Noise
Pop & clicks
Wow and flutter
Mono'd bass
Inner groove distortion
Managed high frequencies

Surface noise certainly exists but to varying degrees and is highly dependent on plating and pressing quality. It's typically not an issue for anything but classical, and in my jazz collection I'd estimate the tape noise from the source well exceeds the vinyl surface noise in at least two-thirds of the albums.

Pops and clicks suck. I'd guess nearly half of my albums don't exhibit any audible ones, and most of the rest maybe a handful per side max. The worst I have of late are expensive audiophile releases (UHQR), while the best recent ones I have are reasonably priced (in context) Tone Poets. If one looks at the waveform or spectrum they'll see hundreds of masked clicks per side.

It's also worth noting that the intrusiveness of these disturbances has a lot to do with the capability of the phono stage: its recovery time from clipping, or that it has sufficient headroom to not clip in the first place. This is something a lot of phono stages still get wrong.

Wow and flutter, except in very rare cases, just isn't an issue unless someone has perfect pitch. It exists, but is sufficiently below audible thresholds for nearly everyone. There are certainly some bad cuts and a good number of incompetent turntables, but I think we should at least assume a competent 'table is being used.

Most bass is mono, and if you're listening to music from the vinyl era it almost certainly is regardless of medium. I can comfortably say that this has been something that I've noticed or thought about exactly zero times when listening to vinyl vs. digital versions. The biggest issue would be out-of-phase bass, but I hope I don't have to explain why you'll likely never run across that.

IGD is something I've very, very rarely experienced, but I use ML/MR styli, and on the rare occasion I do use an elliptical, it's a hyper elliptical that is fresh. Anecdotally I've seen two patterns - people in their 20's mostly using something less than an ML/MR, or people who have shown evidence of not being able to adequately setup a cartridge.

"Managed" high frequencies were more of an issue prior to heated cutting styli and advanced shapes for reproduction styli. It can be an interesting thing to navigate as there are mentions in AES papers that some cutting electronics boosted HD towards the inner grooves to compensate, though that's something I've never noticed from just listening, and as those were the days of conicals it'd seem to not have run very long in to the stereo era at all.

In the age of ellipitcals and heated cutting styli, the reproduction stylus became the limitation, and that's mitigated to a large degree with ML/MR shapes. I know rolloff can be there as I've measured it, but if not doing an AB it's rarely to a level with an ML/MR that'd I'd notice it. Most of the time I can readily pick out level changes of slightly less than a dB in the mid range with no comparison. Most lathes electronics will start to rolloff around 15kHz, but if you analyze music you'll notice there's very little up there, and the vast majority of people the typical age here wouldn't be able to hear it anyway.

All these issues and defects are real, and all else being equal I'd certainly rather listen to a digital version, but they're not nearly as egregious as they're made out to be here. Well, maybe if your experience is abused records, cheap, worn-out styli, and a cheap console stacker. That's what my experience was as a kid, but it's nowhere near what my reality is today. I'd also not recommend anyone get in to vinyl unless for very specific, eyes-wide-open, reasons.

I think my experiences are typical of most "hi-fi" vinyl listeners, at least a lot of the ones I've talked to that have demonstrated some competence with the equipment, or that can phone a friend. And I think this is why many take issue with the simplified lists of six reasons vinyl is horrible and why no one who cares about true fidelity should ever listen to it, and all the condescension that accompanies that delivery.

If you two so badly need to be the arbiters of the truth, then perhaps start dealing with the entire truth, or at least stop feigning abstruseness when people who understand this aspect of the hobby far better than you do challenge your myopic views.

 

[computer-audiophile]

There is another aspect to record playback. For example, on many old records the sound atmosphere of the time in jazz clubs etc. is preserved and can still be recalled today.

In my old audio blog I had once written the following about this, when I was dealing with mono records and the matching contemporary playback technology

Memories of the sound of the past (excerpt of my blog)

Putting an old record on the turntable and cueing in the needle full of anticipation … these are exciting moments, before the real enjoyment starts. One time you listen to an exciting solo of a genius jazz guitarist – perhaps "Wes Montgomery" – on another occasion a fine classic interpretation, or the Beatles record "A Hard Days Night" triggers a romantic flashback. (Label: Parlophone PMC 1230 - Mono - 1964) On the Mono LP the Fab Four sound more as a whole while the Stereo recording seems to be divided into isolated left and right events. This is typical for many important products of this time, they often sound more naturally in the original mono edition than they do in stereo. Classic enthusiasts are acquainted with great mono-recordings anyway. There is no "better", not even with modern technical means. It was by the way the Beatles and a little bit later the Rolling Stones, who turned me on to buy an electric guitar and play in a beat band when I was young. When the Beatles released the single "Love Me Do", I owned a rather simple Lenco record player with crystal pickup, which fed into a japanese "Monarch"-amplifier connected to Isophon speakers. It was the time of 45 rpm singles. 33 LPs were larger than my tiny turntable platter and mostly wowed, because they did not lay flat. This simple equipment did not stay long with me, since school days I switched gear constantly and worked my way up in consumer hierarchy. I always had the ambition to hear better. However nowadays my possibilities are definitely better and more divers.

 

[MattHooper]

My read of the back and forth isn't that there's an issue with calling a spade a spade, it's an issue with calling a spade a spoon, and pretending that you're not. If we take Sal's latest laundry list:

Pops and clicks suck. I'd guess nearly half of my albums don't exhibit any audible ones, and most of the rest maybe a handful per side max.

Same. I rarely find pops and ticks intruding in the actual music on the vast majority of my LPs.

Wow and flutter, except in very rare cases, just isn't an issue unless someone has perfect pitch. It exists, but is sufficiently below audible thresholds for nearly everyone. There are certainly some bad cuts and a good number of incompetent turntables, but I think we should at least assume a competent 'table is being used.

My experience as well. Can't remember the last time I noticed wow or flutter. And, yes, I'm a critical listener. (Though some other people may be more sensitive to it).

Most bass is mono, and if you're listening to music from the vinyl era it almost certainly is regardless of medium. I can comfortably say that this has been something that I've noticed or thought about exactly zero times when listening to vinyl vs. digital versions.

Yup. Never crosses my mind, because I don't notice any obvious deficits in the bass from most of my vinyl records. One of my main interests is funk/dance/EDM etc and I haven't noticed a deficit. If I play my digital copy of a funk or dance album with deep bass synths, or my vinyl copy, they both display deep, punchy bass. (In fact one of the remarks from a recent visitor to my system was the depth and impact of the bass on many tracks...all vinyl).

"Managed" high frequencies were more of an issue prior to heated cutting styli and advanced shapes for reproduction styli. It can be an interesting thing to navigate as there are mentions in AES papers that some cutting electronics boosted HD towards the inner grooves to compensate, though that's something I've never noticed from just listening, and as those were the days of conicals it'd seem to not have run very long in to the stereo era at all.

I've posted interviews and articles before about that, which indicate the whole "the highs are always rolled off for the vinyl version" is a case-by-case basis. Sometimes there is little need, other times the mastering finds a good compromise so high end roll off is not obvious. In any case, a lack of highs, in the sense that, say, cymbals lack sparkle and air, is not something I notice going back and forth between digital and vinyl on my set up.

All these issues and defects are real, and all else being equal I'd certainly rather listen to a digital version, but they're not nearly as egregious as they're made out to be here.

Agreed. All those problems exist...to one degree or another. But I find that the problems can often come across as exaggerated, vs what I hear in practice. (Especially since I upgraded my turntable some years ago). I have several albums, digital and vinyl versions, that sound very, very similar if I level match and switch between them. I'd find it odd...even hilarious...for someone listening to those, to suggest the gulf between the digital and vinyl sonic performance was very large.

 

[afinepoint]

They have to offer the market something for their money, it sure ain't SOTA sound quality.

Never said it was state of the art. Although it was decades ago. Hope no one is making that claim today.

 

[Sal1950]

 

[Sal1950]

Hope no one is making that claim today.

Are you kidding? That's 95% of what you'll read written about vinyl.
What planet have you been on. LOL

 

[MattHooper]

Are you kidding? That's 95% of what you'll read written about vinyl.
What planet have you been on. LOL

But not in this thread, right Sal?

It's one thing to want the "ugly truths" available regarding vinyl. Maybe a forum sticky thread for visitors would get that off your and Newman's chest.

But it doesn't need repeating ad infinitum in a thread in which SOTA claims are not being made.

 

[afinepoint]

What a ridiculous analogy.

There is some of that around here. Makes me chuckle. Ex: A turntable and a hammer are the same thing.

 

[pseudoid]

Pleasure is like the proverbial 'boat' >> wutevR floats it for you!

You can try to convince me that an EV is the best thing since sliced bread until you turn blue.
And if you think there is no connection between the LP 'ritual' and rowing your own 'boat' with a clutch+stick; then you don't understand pleasure and don't deserve CPR!

[Hey @Sal1950 >> Did I get that right?]

 

[Sal1950]

Pleasure is like the proverbial 'boat' >> wutevR floats it for you!

You can try to convince me that an EV is the best thing since sliced bread until you turn blue.
And if you think there is no connection between the LP 'ritual' and rowing your own 'boat' with a clutch+stick; then you don't understand pleasure and don't deserve CPR!

[Hey @Sal1950 >> Did I get that right?]

 

[Sal1950]

But it doesn't need repeating ad infinitum in a thread in which SOTA claims are not being made.

Why not, you and JP just filled half a page with claims the problems aren't very audible or can be ignored?
Y'all sound just like Mikey Fremer.

 

[MaxBuck]

Very strange Indeed.

And remember, we’re told nobody is ridiculing us for enjoying vinyl.

“I don’t like other people liking something I don’t like.”

OK, I'll bite. I think vinyl, in 2023 A.D., is ridiculous.



Actually, I don't think it's any more ridiculous than riding motorcycles, sailing sailboats, riding horses or driving Italian cars. Or frankly, listening to Great American Songbook music. I love the last of these, by the way. But I don't pretend that any of this stuff makes logical sense.

 

[JP]

Why not, you and JP just filled half a page with claims the problems aren't very audible or can be ignored?
Y'all sound just like Mikey Fremer.

Now you’re just being a disingenuous troll Sal.