Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[egellings]

Go for it John!
At your age the exersise will be good for you.
And you can't hear all the noise, pops, clicks, and distortion any who.

Dad burn it! As a geezer I can hear the occasional tick & pop on my TT setup. But to me, who cares; it's got no right to sound that good. Plus, I gits[sic] to fiddle with tone arms, carts & preamps endlessly as a hobby. I do not for a minute think that vinyl fidelity can approach the near perfection id d1g1t0l formats. I do own a CD player and stream music, and SQ is just plain excellent. I enjoy them all. And, shudder, I have home-brewed tube amplifcation. Is that type better than SS class AB or switch-mode amplification? Nope. Those darn output transformers! It's just a fiddly mode of amplification I enjoy, both for sound and for looks. And if engineered correctly (electrical engineering is my job description), tubes can turn in a creditable performance. Of course, in my professional job, I'd never specify a vacuum tube for any project, ever. I'd get laughed out of the place. So my tubed home-brews tickle my nun-handles just fine. My excellent Bryston 4Bst BJT amp also tickles them babies. Enjoy what you like; if you don't like a mode of amplification, then simply pass it by.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I really don't understand why many insist that the focus of this "hobby" shouldn't be High Fidelity Music Reproduction?

Well, hi-fi quality can be achieved with vinyl records. This should not be disputed.

 

[Sal1950]

Nothing like a good, faceless, appeal to authority

Are we dealing with the facts of mastering for vinyl, or you just want ignore the realities?

Vinyl Mastering

Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.

www.gottagrooverecords.com

Mastering for Vinyl | Envato Tuts+

Some people say that a master for vinyl isn't necessary. That a well mastered track will translate equally as well on CD, as it would to vinyl. I say that this simply isn't true. There is no...

music.tutsplus.com

Vinyl Sucks and Your Little Dog Too!

Micrographia: Applications: The microscopy of vinyl records. Page 1.

The microscopical appearance of the vinyl record surface. Techniques for removing groove debris, with photomicrographs.

www.micrographia.com

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

The Truth About Vinyl Records

The year is 1877 and Thomas Edison presents his “Phonograph” to the world. It wasn’t the only device able to reproduce recorded sound but it was the most reliable. The medium in this early machine was the “Brown Wax” cylinder, which was not actually composed of wax but made of a metal soap...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Enjoy what you like; if you don't like a mode of amplification, then simply pass it by.

I've never told anyone any different, have fun.
But if we want to discuss the SOTA in music reproduction, that's a different kettle of fish.
Isn't that what we do here ?

 

[egellings]

I am not sure that is true of the Transcriptor turntables -- especially the earlier ones.



EDIT: It was actually an earlier Transcriptor effort that made it to MoMA.

David Gammon. Turntable. 1964 | MoMA

David Gammon. Turntable. 1964. Transcriptors, Ltd., New York. Polished aluminum, brass, plywood, and acrylic. 4 3/4 x 16 3/8 x 17" (12 x 41.6 x 43.2 cm). Gift of Transcriptors, New York. 342.1969.a-b. Architecture and Design

www.moma.org

I believe this is the same model (Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference) that may be seen in Stanley Kubrick's movie version of A Clockwork Orange.

View attachment 302317

Come to think of it, the same might be said of some of the iconic b&o turntables.

Jacob Jensen. Beogram 6000 Turntable. 1974 | MoMA

Jacob Jensen. Beogram 6000 Turntable. 1974. Bang & Olufsen, Struer, Denmark. Steel, aluminum, and rosewood. 3 3/4 x 19 x 14 1/2" (9.5 x 48.3 x 36.8 cm). Gift of the manufacturer. 111.1976. Architecture and Design

www.moma.org

Every Vild and Sveeng-ging apartment should have one of deese.

 

[computer-audiophile]

...Of course, in my professional job, I'd never specify a vacuum tube for any project, ever. I'd get laughed out of the place. So my tubed home-brews tickle my nun-handles just fine. My excellent Bryston 4Bst BJT amp also tickles them babies. Enjoy what you like; if you don't like a mode of amplification, then simply pass it by.

Privately, I can also have more freedom of choice than when I build a measuring amplifier for a physics experiment in the research lab.

My Sensei was among others Sakuma san, the King of Triodes, I would not like to miss his inspiration on my own work. If I could have told him about the SOTA and SINAD mantra at ASR, I am sure he would have smiled about it.

Sakuma's listening at his legendary bar Concorde in Tateyama included a massive Denon professional studio turntable. I listened to classical and jazz with him.

EDIT: Sakuma basically only listened to mono, I forgot to write that.

 

[JP]

Are we dealing with the facts of mastering for vinyl, or you just want ignore the realities?

Vinyl Mastering

Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.

www.gottagrooverecords.com

Mastering for Vinyl | Envato Tuts+

Some people say that a master for vinyl isn't necessary. That a well mastered track will translate equally as well on CD, as it would to vinyl. I say that this simply isn't true. There is no...

music.tutsplus.com

Vinyl Sucks and Your Little Dog Too!

Micrographia: Applications: The microscopy of vinyl records. Page 1.

The microscopical appearance of the vinyl record surface. Techniques for removing groove debris, with photomicrographs.

www.micrographia.com

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

The Truth About Vinyl Records

The year is 1877 and Thomas Edison presents his “Phonograph” to the world. It wasn’t the only device able to reproduce recorded sound but it was the most reliable. The medium in this early machine was the “Brown Wax” cylinder, which was not actually composed of wax but made of a metal soap...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm not ignoring any realities. In fact I addressed them. Which part of what I said is unclear to you?

BTW, I'd stop quoting sageaudio. They're quire misinformed as to the "why's" - standing them up as a reference doesn't do you any favors.

 

[MattHooper]

Dad burn it! As a geezer I can hear the occasional tick & pop on my TT setup. But to me, who cares; it's got no right to sound that good. Plus, I gits[sic] to fiddle with tone arms, carts & preamps endlessly as a hobby. I do not for a minute think that vinyl fidelity can approach the near perfection id d1g1t0l formats. I do own a CD player and stream music, and SQ is just plain excellent. I enjoy them all. And, shudder, I have home-brewed tube amplifcation. Is that type better than SS class AB or switch-mode amplification? Nope. Those darn output transformers! It's just a fiddly mode of amplification I enjoy, both for sound and for looks. And if engineered correctly (electrical engineering is my job description), tubes can turn in a creditable performance. Of course, in my professional job, I'd never specify a vacuum tube for any project, ever. I'd get laughed out of the place. So my tubed home-brews tickle my nun-handles just fine. My excellent Bryston 4Bst BJT amp also tickles them babies. Enjoy what you like; if you don't like a mode of amplification, then simply pass it by.

As I mentioned early in the thread: I do not perceive nostalgia to be a main motivation for my getting back to spinning records. In a sense, it's almost the opposite. I'd gone pretty much fully to digital once CDs arrived. I'd had a turntable that I used occasionally to play what was left of my old record collection, and THEN it was largely nostalgic.
They were my old records. But that's what I tended to associate with vinyl - a relic of the past, symbolized by my moth-eaten, jacket-creased LPs, and all the record noise that came from not taking care of the records when I was young. And, before the "revival," the occasional local record store re-enforced that "relic of the past" aspect, with their reams of used records, musty smell, and old timer with a shirt bearing the name of his old local band from the 80's, sitting behind the cash register.

It was when the vinyl revival got the new vinyl finally cranking out that changed my perception. Now I was going in to newly arrived record stores seeing brand new product! Fresh out of the factory. When I bought some, holding a beautifully designed, completely new album, and sliding out a pristine just-off-the-press vinyl record...it all felt new, not old. And the increasing enthusiasm, and amount of product, that vinyl was no longer an abandoned technology but one that was cranking up and in ever more demand, felt new. More of the "now." That's still how it strikes me.

Of course there is definitely a connection to the past, for a 59 year old owning and playing records, and I do enjoy that. But it's how the activity has been made to feel new, and now (and that includes now owning a new turntable, the likes of which I never would have imagined to exist when I was young), which is a stronger component than "revisiting the past" for me. (Of course, I do revisit the past with my music selections sometimes, but that was true with digital).

 

[mhardy6647]

EDIT: Sakuma basically only listened to mono, I forgot to write that.

Same way ASR tests loudspeakers.
Coincidence?
I think not.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Same way ASR tests loudspeakers.
Coincidence?
I think not.

I like your humor!

 

[Axo1989]

As I mentioned early in the thread: I do not perceive nostalgia to be a main motivation for my getting back to spinning records. In a sense, it's almost the opposite. I'd gone pretty much fully to digital once CDs arrived. I'd had a turntable that I used occasionally to play what was left of my old record collection, and THEN it was largely nostalgic. ...

It was when the vinyl revival got the new vinyl finally cranking out that changed my perception. Now I was going in to newly arrived record stores seeing brand new product! Fresh out of the factory. When I bought some, holding a beautifully designed, completely new album, and sliding out a pristine just-off-the-press vinyl record...it all felt new, not old. And the increasing enthusiasm, and amount of product, that vinyl was no longer an abandoned technology but one that was cranking up and in ever more demand, felt new. More of the "now." ...

Yes, if I were to buy a turntable, it would be to play new discs released by current artists.

But on the subjective sound quality argument, I recall in another thread @IPunchCholla posted a pair of needle drops (edit: actually, one from vinyl one from digital, is what I meant) for a quick blind listen (a track by The Smile so right up my alley). There was enough surface noise to tell them apart, but only on the intro. There were differences. The vinyl had a bit more bass, and centred, so sounded warmer. The digital had slightly sharper transients, so sounded a bit brighter/clearer, less laid-back. Among other things, both different in good ways. I liked some aspects of each, but preferred the digital overall. It isn't a stretch to imagine someone preferring that vinyl sound. Rinse and repeat for many different recordings.

Just as in another comparison here where most participants couldn't differentiate that "22 dB SINAD" 300B SET amp consistently, banging on about technical SQ can be easily overdone. Obviously, vinyl can sound good (if it couldn't that would be another matter). In combination with the aesthetic, haptic, nostalgic, community and other aspects, it isn't difficult to understand the appeal.

 

[levimax]

Yes, if I were to buy a turntable, it would be to play new discs released by current artists.

I never buy new recordings on vinyl, only old original pressings of music originally released on LP. That's what is fun about this hobby in general and Vinyl in particular. There are no rules, people can do what they want and have fun listening to music which is what I think this hobby is about. As far as being "Hi-Fi" or not that level of performance was reached many decades ago.

 

[Axo1989]

I never buy new recordings on vinyl, only old original pressings of music originally released on LP. That's what is fun about this hobby in general and Vinyl in particular. There are no rules, people can do what they want and have fun listening to music which is what I think this hobby is about. As far as being "Hi-Fi" or not that level of performance was reached many decades ago.

Yes, on all counts. And who knows what I would end up with (music-wise) if I did have a turntable.

 

[afinepoint]

I am fairly sure, Mr. Newman and myself are simply having a bit of fun in this thread. I would not take things so seriously or personally.

I can completely see most of the views that are hating on me or thinking I am being clueless or a jerk. Trust me I get it all.
But all must be able to see that none of this is truly "That important" overall.

When I mention some become defensive of vinyl, just look at the last several pages of this thread......I mean, I am kidding a good bit and having fun with this, and meant all in good spirits, but I am not so sure we all are....

Gonna head out of this thread, was not sure it would cause so much panic and alarm. I thought this place was above bickering more than most other forums.
So carry on all and have a great time!

I hate bickering as well as I touched on. Somewhere else it was mentioned there are those that cruise these threads to be provocative. "Push ASR members buttons" You yourself are kinda inferring you are one. I like kidding as well but make it such. People that throw (veiled) insults, discount other's opinions and then when caught say, "Oh I was just kidding" aren't contributing anything useful. The good point they might have been making gets lost in the "joke".

I'd leave too.

 

[MattHooper]

I never buy new recordings on vinyl, only old original pressings of music originally released on LP. That's what is fun about this hobby in general and Vinyl in particular. There are no rules, people can do what they want and have fun listening to music which is what I think this hobby is about. As far as being "Hi-Fi" or not that level of performance was reached many decades ago.

Not only that, we all get to be as capricious or idiosyncratic as we want in our enjoyment.

For instance: I'm one who doesn't care at all if a record came from a digital master. A good sounding record is a good sounding record, to me. (And the vinyl process tends to produce some level of alteration on the sound in any case).

But, when it comes to my turntable/vinyl playback....I don't want to digitize it! I want a pure analog chain. Even though it would surely sound fine, even indistinguishable, if I put it through an A/D-D/A process. What gives? Seems inconsistent. And in a sense it is. I don't care, because I'm not trying to please others with my system, just my own psychology.

(I would point out though, that I am consistent with my wider epistemic viewpoint: I don't think any audiophile has to practice rigorous engineering/scientific practices in doing the hobby, but especially IF I'm going to make some claim others are supposed to accept, then I take on the burden of providing evidence. For instance, if I said I wasn't digitizing my vinyl because that couldn't be done without altering the sound (something I don't believe) and I thought anyone else should believe this, I'd need to back that up
beyond conjecture and anecdote).

Yes, on all counts. And who knows what I would end up with (music-wise) if I did have a turntable.

That's in interesting aspect that I've read in so many vinyl newbies. It's a constant refrain about "discovering new music" and "being turned on to music I'd never otherwise have gotten in to."

You'd think that digital streaming in of itself would be perfectly suitable for that purpose (which it is for many people): Instant access to countless artists and albums. And yet, many young people keep saying this about record collecting. And it's understandable how record collecting can funnel someone's interests in ways it otherwise wouldn't have gone. For instance, my fascination with Library Music was turbo-charged by getting in to vinyl. It was a very "vinyl-oriented" sub-genre by nature, for a long time.
Different ways to skin a cat, as the gruesome saying goes....

 

[Newman]

They have to offer the market something for their money, it sure ain't SOTA sound quality.

You can’t be right, Sal. I mean, look at the current Origin Live website:-

“High Performance Turntables Produce the Ultimate Sound Quality​

“The record player still reigns supreme in terms of performance. Experts agree that leading turntables provide a more satisfying musical experience than any digital counterparts. Unlike digital streaming & CD, there seems no limitation on the musical information that turntables can extract from vinyl. In recent years, advances in some turntables have caused the gulf between digital performance and vinyl to widen even further. Origin Live draws together many long-established principles of high-end turntable design, along with advanced innovations, to reveal just how much the vinyl medium is capable of.”

And they are the experts, and as you can see in the text, “experts agree”. We humble critics apparently don’t know squat. Not compared to a serious manufacturer.

Myself also, I've never hated on anyone here.
But for simply refusing to let the snake-oil marketing of vinyl become SOP at ASR, we are the ones being hated on.
That's also such an ugly word used for simple technical debates on sound quality.

Apparently, if we call a spade a spade, that act alone will convince members of the Spade Appreciation Society that we hate both spades and their users. However ridiculous the idea is, the fact that some people see factual statements about a tool that way tells us that bias can create delusions.

I really don't understand why many insist that the focus of this "hobby" shouldn't be High Fidelity Music Reproduction?
Whether source media, electronic components, or speakers, they should all be judged by their ability bring the sound of the master recording into the home with as little alteration as possible.

Agreed, at least in terms of primary focus. I fully appreciate individuals putting time and love into other areas of the hobby, but the primary intent and function of Sound Reproduction technology is written right there in the words.

And in terms of their primary function, the cutting and playing back of vinyl records is now a second-tier technology. Except I’m wrong because, y’know, Origin Live says I am. And they must know a lot more than I do about turntables….

That’s why it’s wrong for people to tell us to shut up because we already said it earlier, that vinyl is second-rate. That Origin Live material is shouting from the rooftops. People still come on this website and sprout the usual anti-digital myths. And then there is the silent readership here. The marketing messages out there, about spades being the ultimate earthmoving equipment, are worth correcting, not just way back in this thread somewhere, but here, today, and tomorrow. An important function of ASR.

cheers

 

[thecheapseats]

occasionally I'll receive newly remastered vinyls of recordings I've played-on, produced or composed over the years and I will listen to them out of curiosity and for fun - just because... however, it's almost always disappointing for a number of various reasons...

but please ->> do continue buying vinyl if that's what floats your vinyl record cleaning device... because oddly, vinyl sales (even in the 21st century) still makes me money while I sleep... thanks in advance...

 

[Sal1950]

You can’t be right, Sal. I mean, look at the current Origin Live website:-

“High Performance Turntables Produce the Ultimate Sound Quality​

“The record player still reigns supreme in terms of performance. Experts agree that leading turntables provide a more satisfying musical experience than any digital counterparts. Unlike digital streaming & CD, there seems no limitation on the musical information that turntables can extract from vinyl. In recent years, advances in some turntables have caused the gulf between digital performance and vinyl to widen even further. Origin Live draws together many long-established principles of high-end turntable design, along with advanced innovations, to reveal just how much the vinyl medium is capable of.”

LOL, The same bunch of fools there tell everyone how a $5,000 power cable will make the wife come running in the listening room vomiting out words of encouragement about the massive improvement in sound quality.
That same garbage gets repeated in this thread in the hint hint, wink wink manner of saying things without actually saying so.

I fully appreciate individuals putting time and love into other areas of the hobby, but the primary intent and function of Sound Reproduction technology is written right there in the words.

As do I. Besides ASR, my other main forum home is QuadraphonicQuad. A large percentage of it's members are heavily into vinyl with the collecting and playback of the various forms multich encryption on disc. From the electronic gear to the TT's, very special needles, and all the rest, you have to be really dedicated to the collector side of the hobby. If you want to try something tuff, try getting CD4 discrete 4ch LP's to operate in a reliable manner with decent sound quality.. Plus if you should do it in a poor manner more than a couple times, the UHF CD4 carrier will be wiped from the LP forever and maybe junk an expensive antique stylus along with it.
I've never once criticized their passion in any way, they love the challenge and dedication it takes to make the long obsolete discs and gear just work. It's an extension of DIY audio that doesn't necessarily relate directly to High Fidelity any more than the DIY garage auto builder expects to run in next years Indy 500. Of course I've never heard anyone even hint that these discs, along with the SQ and QS matrix quad discs, can even come close to a modern digital quad source. Not to mention the 5.1, 7.1, Atmos, and other lossless immersive audio formats, todays real SOTA sound mediums. Although not my thing, I highly respect the members for the work they put into what they love, in the same way I respect the lovers of antique cars, airplanes, motorcycles, firearms etc.
Enjoy and have fun with what you love, life is short.
Just don't confuse a horse with a Corvette.

 

[MattHooper]

occasionally I'll receive newly remastered vinyls of recordings I've played-on, produced or composed over the years and I will listen to them out of curiosity and for fun - just because... however, it's almost always disappointing for a number of various reasons...

but please ->> do continue buying vinyl if that's what floats your vinyl record cleaning device... because oddly, vinyl sales (even in the 21st century) still makes me money while I sleep... thanks in advance...

That's great! Reaping the reward for producing in a medium that has withstood the test of time like few other entertainment technologies (60-90 years and counting, depending on where you start it!).

My brother puts out his indie music on vinyl because it helps bring in some income (where he gets little from his digital streaming revenue), he feels like many young musicians today that holding his finished product in hand in the form of a vinyl package feels more satisfying then just releasing it in to the digital ether. And it gives us another way of supporting artists we like. A win-win.

 

[mhardy6647]

but please ->> do continue buying vinyl if that's what floats your vinyl record cleaning device... because oddly, vinyl sales (even in the 21st century) still makes me money while I sleep... thanks in advance...

You also make money while you sleep from streaming versions, too, right? You just have to sleep a lot more.


[EDIT] I'm I apologize for stooping to that joke! I realize that the remuneration of artists, composers, and their "enablers" (e.g., producers) in the digital/streaming era is a very serious issue! Indeed, upon reflection, maybe it's the best reason for "the vinyl renaissance" from a purely socioeconomic standpoint (and I am not being facetious for a change).

 

[thecheapseats]

That's great! Reaping the reward for producing in a medium that has withstood the test of time like few other entertainment technologies (60-90 years and counting, depending on where you start it!).

My brother puts out his indie music on vinyl because it helps bring in some income (where he gets little from his digital streaming revenue), he feels like many young musicians today that holding his finished product in hand in the form of a vinyl package feels more satisfying then just releasing it in to the digital ether. And it gives us another way of supporting artists we like. A win-win.

if you enjoy being served a once-fine meal, redistributed cold in a brown paper bag and eating it with a plastic fork - go for it...