Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[egellings]

Are we dealing with the facts of mastering for vinyl, or you just want ignore the realities?

Mastering For Vinyl Records | Gotta Groove Records Gotta Groove Records

Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.

www.gottagrooverecords.com

Mastering for Vinyl | Envato Tuts+

Some people say that a master for vinyl isn't necessary. That a well mastered track will translate equally as well on CD, as it would to vinyl. I say that this simply isn't true. There is no...

music.tutsplus.com

Vinyl Sucks and Your Little Dog Too!

Micrographia: Applications: The microscopy of vinyl records. Page 1.

The microscopical appearance of the vinyl record surface. Techniques for removing groove debris, with photomicrographs.

www.micrographia.com

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

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The Truth About Vinyl Records

The year is 1877 and Thomas Edison presents his “Phonograph” to the world. It wasn’t the only device able to reproduce recorded sound but it was the most reliable. The medium in this early machine was the “Brown Wax” cylinder, which was not actually composed of wax but made of a metal soap...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I've never told anyone any different, have fun.
But if we want to discuss the SOTA in music reproduction, that's a different kettle of fish.
Isn't that what we do here ?

Agree. But after S.Q. gets so good that improvements become inaudible, then I see no reason to chase better performance at ever increasing cost. At that point, the race is over. Stop running. You've crossed the finish line. Kick back with your favorite beverage, put a tune on the equipment of your choice, and enjoy the music.

 

[egellings]

My read of the back and forth isn't that there's an issue with calling a spade a spade, it's an issue with calling a spade a spoon, and pretending that you're not. If we take Sal's latest laundry list:



Surface noise certainly exists but to varying degrees and is highly dependent on plating and pressing quality. It's typically not an issue for anything but classical, and in my jazz collection I'd estimate the tape noise from the source well exceeds the vinyl surface noise in at least two-thirds of the albums.

Pops and clicks suck. I'd guess nearly half of my albums don't exhibit any audible ones, and most of the rest maybe a handful per side max. The worst I have of late are expensive audiophile releases (UHQR), while the best recent ones I have are reasonably priced (in context) Tone Poets. If one looks at the waveform or spectrum they'll see hundreds of masked clicks per side.

It's also worth noting that the intrusiveness of these disturbances has a lot to do with the capability of the phono stage: its recovery time from clipping, or that it has sufficient headroom to not clip in the first place. This is something a lot of phono stages still get wrong.

Wow and flutter, except in very rare cases, just isn't an issue unless someone has perfect pitch. It exists, but is sufficiently below audible thresholds for nearly everyone. There are certainly some bad cuts and a good number of incompetent turntables, but I think we should at least assume a competent 'table is being used.

Most bass is mono, and if you're listening to music from the vinyl era it almost certainly is regardless of medium. I can comfortably say that this has been something that I've noticed or thought about exactly zero times when listening to vinyl vs. digital versions. The biggest issue would be out-of-phase bass, but I hope I don't have to explain why you'll likely never run across that.

IGD is something I've very, very rarely experienced, but I use ML/MR styli, and on the rare occasion I do use an elliptical, it's a hyper elliptical that is fresh. Anecdotally I've seen two patterns - people in their 20's mostly using something less than an ML/MR, or people who have shown evidence of not being able to adequately setup a cartridge.

"Managed" high frequencies were more of an issue prior to heated cutting styli and advanced shapes for reproduction styli. It can be an interesting thing to navigate as there are mentions in AES papers that some cutting electronics boosted HD towards the inner grooves to compensate, though that's something I've never noticed from just listening, and as those were the days of conicals it'd seem to not have run very long in to the stereo era at all.

In the age of ellipitcals and heated cutting styli, the reproduction stylus became the limitation, and that's mitigated to a large degree with ML/MR shapes. I know rolloff can be there as I've measured it, but if not doing an AB it's rarely to a level with an ML/MR that'd I'd notice it. Most of the time I can readily pick out level changes of slightly less than a dB in the mid range with no comparison. Most lathes electronics will start to rolloff around 15kHz, but if you analyze music you'll notice there's very little up there, and the vast majority of people the typical age here wouldn't be able to hear it anyway.

All these issues and defects are real, and all else being equal I'd certainly rather listen to a digital version, but they're not nearly as egregious as they're made out to be here. Well, maybe if your experience is abused records, cheap, worn-out styli, and a cheap console stacker. That's what my experience was as a kid, but it's nowhere near what my reality is today. I'd also not recommend anyone get in to vinyl unless for very specific, eyes-wide-open, reasons.

I think my experiences are typical of most "hi-fi" vinyl listeners, at least a lot of the ones I've talked to that have demonstrated some competence with the equipment, or that can phone a friend. And I think this is why many take issue with the simplified lists of six reasons vinyl is horrible and why no one who cares about true fidelity should ever listen to it, and all the condescension that accompanies that delivery.

If you two so badly need to be the arbiters of the truth, then perhaps start dealing with the entire truth, or at least stop feigning abstruseness when people who understand this aspect of the hobby far better than you do challenge your myopic views.

It's hard to tell where bass is coming from anyway, so making it mono does no harm as far as I can see--oops, hear.

 

[MattHooper]

OK, I'll bite. I think vinyl, in 2023 A.D., is ridiculous.



Actually, I don't think it's any more ridiculous than riding motorcycles, sailing sailboats, riding horses or driving Italian cars. Or frankly, listening to Great American Songbook music. I love the last of these, by the way. But I don't pretend that any of this stuff makes logical sense.

It's not that any of those things are illogical. I suggest your analysis is illogical. It seems to misunderstand the nature of value and rationality.

This idea that spinning vinyl (or other things that are not SOTA in our lives) is "illogical" seems to rest on a misunderstanding of what makes something reasonable or logical.
It's like presuming there is only one goal (or one rational goal) for all human beings and applying that to a particular pursuit.

Rational action is predicated on taking actions that are likely to fulfill one's goal/desire. Not everyone has the same goals/desires! And there is nothing inherently 'illogical' about things that give us pleasure. If I happen to like and currently desire some chocolate ice cream and dislike strawberry ice cream, then it's reasonable to order chocolate ice cream. If your preference is the opposite, the rational action is the opposite from mine. That's how rational decisions work.

If *you* have a goal of strict neutrality then it's reasonable for you to look for neutral equipment. If someone else putting together a "boom" car stereo system to listen to their music, in which they seek teeth rattling bass, then it wouldn't meet their goal to buy to the neutral equipment that would please you. That would be illogical, given their preference and goal.

And it would be silly to ignore that we know our perception and experience can be seriously affected by all sorts of factors conjoined to that experience. It's why for instance fine dining restaurants spend all that money on decor, seating, style of service, presentation of food, etc. One person may not care for that type of experience and prefer their local cheaper, causal restaurants - that is the experience they want. But someone else my find the fine dining version enhances their experience of a meal out (like me).

Same with collecting/playing records. If it turns out that one likes the sound of records and/or that the various associated aspects increase the value of the experience - the pleasure of owning and using a nice turntable, the interaction with the gear in dialing it in, the aesthetics of records, the physical requirements leading to that person focusing more on music listening rather than as a background experience....then all that makes listening to records a perfectly "logical" reasonable choice. In fact, it makes it the MORE "logical" choice insofar as digital doesn't provide the same enhancements for that person.

 

[AdamG]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated. Let’s make this the last one. If you can’t behave like an adult and treat others with respect and dignity then don’t post here. If you don’t like Vinyl then why are you posting here? Every member of ASR knows the limitations of this format and they chose to listen anyway. It brings nostalgic vibes and harkens back to a bygone time. Some people like Bluetooth some like wired connection. Some like this and some like that. Who are we to dictate to our fellow members how they consume their Music? Some are strict 2 channel and some like multi channel. Can we just let the Record Player folks enjoy their Thread with out the daily brow beating and constant reminder that your method is superior speach.

Just Stop already and leave these fellow members alone.

 

[pseudoid]

OK, I'll bite. I think vinyl, in 2023 A.D., is ridiculous.

I live the life of generalities but if you gonna play; you gonna have to commit fully!
Let me take your argumentative logic to its FULL extreme.

LIVING IS RIDICULOUS!

Nyuck, Nyuck!

 

[afinepoint]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated. Let’s make this the last one. If you can’t behave like an adult and treat others with respect and dignity then don’t post here. If you don’t like Vinyl then why are you posting here? Every member of ASR knows the limitations of this format and they chose to listen anyway. It brings nostalgic vibes and harkens back to a bygone time. Some people like Bluetooth some like wired connection. Some like this and some like that. Who are we to dictate to our fellow members how they consume their Music? Some are strict 2 channel and some like multi channel. Can we just let the Record Player folks enjoy their Thread with out the daily brow beating and constant reminder that your method is superior speach.

Just Stop already and leave these fellow members alon

Thank you thank you. For putting a stop to the nonsense.

e.

 

[Sokel]

Trying to be rational about vinyl's renaissance amongst people like lots of us who use/used it for decades does not makes sense to me.
We're too deep in it to understand.

It would be better to ask the neophytes of the medium.If I had to guess is the primordial need to differentiate while belonging and trend of our times dictates that old tripod (you all know what I'm talking about) and what comes with it.

To us is personal.My vinyl listening is just becoming 13 yo again pined down in front of it under the sleepless attention of my father.
Is just a feel,nothing more.Same goes for my 1920's phonograph,it's my grand father's reminder about sharing the same passion for music.

Plus the performances I love the most which sadly come from a time that along with tapes was the only available way.
That's all,no fuss about it.

(I'll leave out the superficial me who likes nice things around out for once).

 

[antcollinet]

View attachment 302690

You have no idea how happy I was when Sony invented the walkman.

 

[MaxBuck]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated. Let’s make this the last one. If you can’t behave like an adult and treat others with respect and dignity then don’t post here.

I just want to say that if you believe my comments were insulting, you've missed the point entirely.

Enjoying one's hobbies doesn't need to be rational. My own hobbies undoubtedly are viewed as ridiculous by many people, and rightfully so. What's important is what enjoyment one derives, nothing else.

 

[MattHooper]

You have no idea how happy I was when Sony invented the walkman.

I remember how magical it was, first getting a Walkman! I still have lots of memories of walking around the streets, or on the bus, listening to my favorite music, with a sense of wonder. It also made some of the drudge-work when employed at a bakery more bearable.

(I occasionally miss walking outside listening to music. I don't use headphones both because I'm generally not keen on them, but also because they tend to exacerbate
my tinnitus/hyperacusis, so they are a no-non for me).

 

[AdamG]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated. Let’s make this the last one. If you can’t behave like an adult and treat others with respect and dignity then don’t post here. If you don’t like Vinyl then why are you posting here? Every member of ASR knows the limitations of this format and they chose to listen anyway. It brings nostalgic vibes and harkens back to a bygone time. Some people like Bluetooth some like wired connection. Some like this and some like that. Who are we to dictate to our fellow members how they consume their Music? Some are strict 2 channel and some like multi channel. Can we just let the Record Player folks enjoy their Thread with out the daily brow beating and constant reminder that your method is superior speach.

Just Stop already and leave these fellow members alone.

Some of you missed this so I’m reposting it. The fight/argument is over. From either side. We are moving on and if you can’t do that then you will lose your posting privileges.

Please and thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Sal1950]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated.

Understand the emotion Adam.
But could you highlight what besides presenting the facts on the science of vinyls cutting and reproduction problems are insults?
I'm not sure what Newman or myself have said that could be called insulting?
I've been here so many times at other sights.
The cable believers and all the others complain and whine about being presented
with pushback against their religion too.

If you enjoy the whole process of playing and collecting records, awesome. Have fun, no one is taking that away.
If you enjoy playing with various cables, grounding boxes and USB widgets, that's kool too.

But if you want to deny the problems are audible, and continually ignore the fact that the final pressed product sounds nothing like the original master tape/file, do to being modified according to the demands and mechanical weaknesses of the cutting head and playback gear, what are we to say? You may enjoy the sound, but true transparency to the source with vinyl doesn't exist, these are the facts. This is what audiophiles bemoaned for decades. Must we be silenced because the facts hurt.
I hope ASR isn't going down the same road as WBF, ComputerAudiophile, HeadFi, and so many others?
Cheers, Sal

 

[pseudoid]

Any further back and forth insults will not be tolerated.

Would you please - at least - PM those who you are accusing of fighting, insults, etc?

I ask because I've been wrongly banned based-on your perception and accusation of rule-breaking, which wasn't rule breaking but just a perception.
Who am I to argue with authority; so, don't ban me for asking, please.

 

[USER]

Moderators need to decide if they are going to do something about the self-appointed gatekeepers ruining the goodwill a lot of people have worked very hard to establish on this site with respect to the medium. Most every other turntable related forum has been ruined by similar gatekeeping. As this thread has shown, the position doesn't even matter. It is about stifling discussion. It would be helpful to know if we are welcome here or if we should look elsewhere. There's a lot of punting going on here and it is disappointing.

 

[thecheapseats]

OK, I'll bite. I think vinyl, in 2023 A.D., is ridiculous.

vinyl today isn't ridiculous - the reproduction equipment itself has a solid place with a vinyl music collection amassed over a lifetime... I still have the first two 45s I bought when I was ten years old, and I own far fewer cd's (appx 500+) with vinyl LPs easily four times that number...

appx fifty-percent classical and forty-percent jazz recordings all long out of print were part of my supplemental music education... and many of these collected recordings were made and sold long before I was born or able to ride my bicycle to a record store...

guessing that less than 20% of the LPs I own were ever made available on cd - and many that were reproduced on cds (which I really wanted to own digitally) - most were not transferred well - at all...

with all of vinyl's flaws, the music itself is far more valuable than any TT/vinyl delivery system used to enjoy any vinyl music collection... but to ignore or dismiss those flaws is disingenuous, and reveals a rather obvious bias...

 

[MattHooper]

As I've pointed out before: I certainly have no beef with anyone saying they don't like vinyl, or even if they despise it. It ain't for everyone.
I see no need to ridicule whatever platform they use to enjoy their music.

Back to the vinyl revival:

It's still pretty wild that it's continuing. I keep thinking the rising vinyl prices and backlogs in manufacturing are finally going to really kick in and put the brakes on.
Doesn't seem to have happened yet. But I can't see prices being able to keep going up. I already see a fair amount of complaints on some of the vinyl sites.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I hope ASR isn't going down the same road as WBF, ComputerAudiophile, HeadFi, and so many others?

Where is the problem with my point of view? I'm just writing here about mine with vinyl records and trying to illustrate that vividly.

There is also another facet of me as an audiophile regarding digital audio. I do not position these two audio technologies against each other, but use both as a matter of course. The modern technology I use even more and am quite up to date, in this and have expressed my findings about it elsewhere in the ASR.

 

[Sokel]

Where is the problem with my point of view? I'm just writing here about mine with vinyl records and trying to illustrate that vividly.

There is also another facet of me as an audiophile regarding digital audio. I do not position these two audio technologies against each other, but use both as a matter of course. The modern technology I use even more and am quite up to date, in this and have expressed my findings about it elsewhere in the ASR.

He's talking about the forum,I think is now called Audiophile Style.

 

[afinepoint]

Understand the emotion Adam.
But could you highlight what besides presenting the facts on the science of vinyls cutting and reproduction problems are insults?
I'm not sure what Newman or myself have said that could be called insulting?
I've been here so many times at other sights.
The cable believers and all the others complain and whine about being presented
with pushback against their religion too.

If you enjoy the whole process of playing and collecting records, awesome. Have fun, no one is taking that away.
If you enjoy playing with various cables, grounding boxes and USB widgets, that's kool too.

But if you want to deny the problems are audible, and continually ignore the fact that the final pressed product sounds nothing like the original master tape/file, do to being modified according to the demands and mechanical weaknesses of the cutting head and playback gear, what are we to say? You may enjoy the sound, but true transparency to the source with vinyl doesn't exist, these are the facts. This is what audiophiles bemoaned for decades. Must we be silenced because the facts hurt.
I hope ASR isn't going down the same road as WBF, ComputerAudiophile, HeadFi, and so many others?
Cheers, Sal

I feel it's the little smart ass lines. Generally towards the end of the post. We just don't know each other well enough for sarcastic remarks. You can't just say what you want to say irregardless. And certainly to the new people. I would never say some of the things said here or makes some of the comments to someone I didn't know well. It's just rude and ill mannered. Doesn't matter if it's facts. It's how they are presented. If you want to state a fact have supporting evidence otherwise say it's an opinion. What's obvious to you might be total alien to another. Insulting their intelligence with sweeping statements implying they should already know something is incorrect. As I mentioned to another when I read a rude or thoughtless remark it dilutes anything else that person has to say. And weakens their point by often (them) seeming defensive. And watch the logical fallacies. If someone doesn't know what they are research them. When I read one I skip to the next comment.

Another thing is the intolerance for opposing views. There is way to much of that. It's ok to have a desenting thought. Some are way to emotionally attached to their views to even pause to consider another Believing doesn't make one right. And facts can be misinterpreted or just plain wrong. Perhaps few here are likely audio engineers, hardware designers, fabricators, musicians, audiologist and other professions that allow off the cuff authoritative statements. I admit I could be wrong there. I'm going by the manner and substance of the replies read. Amir and I'm sure others are exceptions not the rule. Otherwise we are so often going by what we've read somewhere or personal experience. Which I am in no way discounting. That has value but in so much as it pertains to that person only.

And remember this is an audio forum. Meaning in the end sound. Curves explain and can lead one in a direction but in the end ears matter. Whether ears can be tricked or can't be trusted isn't meaningful. That's a point for its own thread. Your money your ears, their money their's. Don't badger because they like what they like or hear what they hear.

I don't think the majority of the comments in question are meant to be hurtful they are just thoughtlessly presented. Let work on our statesmenship, manners and diplomacy and move forward as adults.

 

[Jack Harrison]

Understand the emotion Adam.
But could you highlight what besides presenting the facts on the science of vinyls cutting and reproduction problems are insults?
I'm not sure what Newman or myself have said that could be called insulting?
I've been here so many times at other sights.
The cable believers and all the others complain and whine about being presented
with pushback against their religion too.

If you enjoy the whole process of playing and collecting records, awesome. Have fun, no one is taking that away.
If you enjoy playing with various cables, grounding boxes and USB widgets, that's kool too.

But if you want to deny the problems are audible, and continually ignore the fact that the final pressed product sounds nothing like the original master tape/file, do to being modified according to the demands and mechanical weaknesses of the cutting head and playback gear, what are we to say? You may enjoy the sound, but true transparency to the source with vinyl doesn't exist, these are the facts. This is what audiophiles bemoaned for decades. Must we be silenced because the facts hurt.
I hope ASR isn't going down the same road as WBF, ComputerAudiophile, HeadFi, and so many others?
Cheers, Sal

Face slaps? Tired old cartoons? I just happened to spot some of your comments on another thread - very decent and reasonable to say the least, so out of character maybe? I haven’t taken any of your insults personally, but it wouldn’t be hard to make a long list of comments that far from being factual are just gratuitously insulting. Even above ‘the cable believers and all the others complain about being presented with pushback against their religion too’ - on a forum where most of us are here because we think the primary quality of a cable should be that it conducts electricity and not that it costs as much as a top end amp. Why would you equate people who just enjoy listening to their records - as well as CDs and digital streams - with members of a religious cult?
And we have to be protected because the facts about vinyl hurt? No. Some of the facts you quote - wow and flutter, rumble, etc. - aren’t a factor in our record listening experience anyway. I accept that digital measures better than analogue but that doesn’t mean the sound quality of vinyl can’t be either high quality or hugely enjoyable.