Can a DAC improve soundstage, depth, separation?

[617]

I'm going to answer your question with a question : Would you rather have a $1500 pair of speakers and a $200 DAC, or would you rather have a $200 pair of speakers and a $1500 DAC?

I'd rather have the DAC in an old iphone and a 1700 dollar pair of speakers.

 

[JayGilb]

The difference, if any, will be from the post converter analog circuitry. They would have to either add distortion purposefully or from a poor design.
No difference will be heard if the design is competent and quality components were used.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I bought an Octo Dac 8 Pro, not so much because of its Sinad (118), but because it gave me the 8 transparent channels I needed to run a 5.1 channel surround system, and a 2 channel headphone system. I don't think I will ever feel the need to buy another DAC in my lifetime regardless of whether its measurements are surpassed by anything else. And no, I don't think it contributes anything to the soundstage that was not already on the program material--nor should it (or any other DAC for that matter).

 

[digitalfrost]

As a physics teacher you are numerate enough to understand how the decibel scale works.

An absolute trash, garbage teir DAC has distortion and noise components that are 70db quieter than the pure signal. An okay DAC is more like 90db, and a top tier DAC is close to 120db.

The thing is, -70db is incredibly quiet. Like, you will never hear it in a million years quiet. Add that to the fact that noise is generally not that obtrusive and distortion isnt even a factor in subjective audio quality....it's safe to say no DAC has ever made a difference as long as it's putting out enough juice to make your amplifier happy.

This is my goto decibel video

It's aimed at wifi/radio but I've never seen a simpler explanation.

 

[tallbeardedone]

As a physics teacher you are numerate enough to understand how the decibel scale works.

An absolute trash, garbage teir DAC has distortion and noise components that are 70db quieter than the pure signal. An okay DAC is more like 90db, and a top tier DAC is close to 120db.

The thing is, -70db is incredibly quiet. Like, you will never hear it in a million years quiet. Add that to the fact that noise is generally not that obtrusive and distortion isnt even a factor in subjective audio quality....it's safe to say no DAC has ever made a difference as long as it's putting out enough juice to make your amplifier happy.

YES TO THIS. Very good point.

 

[tallbeardedone]

Just NO to influence depth and width you need to influence fr response and phase relationship with specific sounds in the mix not a property a DAC can have it’s not an DSP engine.

I just decodes 2 channels of audio . It’s the usual electrical waveform with amplitude on one axis and time on the other as your accustomed to with your physic teaching, it does not have more properties.

They are boringly similar when they work properly.

So to counter that audiophile community has given you stuff like.

A renaissance for R2R DAC ( the original way of building DAC’s) , this tech can work if done properly then its gets expensive, typical delta sigma based chips DAC’s betters even the best ones for a fraction of the price .
The bad ones are not very good at all.

NOS DAC non oversampling DAC’s. A weird idea that the oversampling in DAC chips are bad ?

Filter less DAC’s the idea that digital filters are bad these does not work properly at all in reconstructing the original wave form.

These usually combines to the final horror R2R DAC with no filter run .

If it where anything to this nonsense it would show up in the measurement of THD and noise .

Have you seen this btw.

epic post and video. I always thought the step function was there just really really small. Learned something. Thanks very much.

 

[jkasch]

No so, my friend. Apparently you have never been introduced to the Lirpa Labs Analyzer of SoundStages (A.S.S.). It's a remarkably advanced piece of test gear that can quantify both soundstage depth and soundstage width for any DAC under evaluation. I used one for years when I worked on DAC design and development.

LIrpa Labs. Haven’t heard of their test equipment being used in quite a while. Their reports were always published in April of each year and their steam powered turntable was state of the art.

 

[PatentLawyer]

The only tweak I’ve used that transformed my soundstage in a positive way (aside from speaker placement / room treatment) is Dirac. Worth every nickel in my opinion.

 

[DanielT]

If they are bad, really bad DACs, and you perceive the audibly bad as good (if nowadays there are even such bad DACs, audible deviations FR, distortion noise?) then absolutely then they can "improve soundstage" for you. There are those who like a colored sound. Most people avoid it like the plague but don't worry about it. Like what you want. Buy a crappy DAC and play on.

If you can find any new modern DACs that are that bad? I doubt it. Invest in tube amps instead in that case. If you want colored sound. Greater opportunities to get "improve soundstage, depth,.."with tubis.

Otherwise, no.Regarding your question

 

[Prana Ferox]

I'm pretty sure you can.

I guess it depends on how far in advance they start the 'blind' part.

 

[Jimbob54]

I guess it depends on how far in advance they start the 'blind' part.

More how much they think about what dacs they might already have.

 

[617]

If they are bad, really bad DACs, and you perceive the audibly bad as good (if nowadays there are even such bad DACs, audible deviations FR, distortion noise?) then absolutely then they can "improve soundstage" for you. There are those who like a colored sound. Most people avoid it like the plague but don't worry about it. Like what you want. Buy a crappy DAC and play on.

If you can find any new modern DACs that are that bad? I doubt it. Invest in tube amps instead in that case. If you want colored sound. Greater opportunities to get "improve soundstage, depth,.."with tubis.

Otherwise, no.Regarding your question

I would estimate conservatively that for a DAC to have reliable audibility differences it would have to have a SINAD score around -40db or worse, or frequency response deviations above 3 db (which, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, would show up in the distortion spectra).

This is the worst DAC ASR has seen I believe - SINAD is around -52. That -52db number appears to come from one particularly prominent third harmonic spike. I would argue this is not likely to be audible at that level.

Axiom speakers in Canada publicized this fun experiment showing distortion thresholds at different frequencies. It's not a perfect study but it demonstrates, among other things, that distortion actually had to be louder than the basic signal to be perceptible at low frequencies, and at many frequencies needs to be about as loud as the actual music. This makes sense since distortion is:

• highly correlated to the music itself - it is loud only when the music is also loud
• reminiscent of the instruments that create the music itself (all physical isntruments and the vast majority of synthesizer patches have a whole spray of harmonics which is why they sound good) The human voice itself often has a fundamental frequency which is somewhat clear, but other frequencies which are almost as loud.

 

[jasonhanjk]

Depends on how good is your current equipment crosstalk. Without measurements data, unable to give you an answer.

 

[reydelanada]

I did mention that changing DACs didn't cause in my test major soundstage modifications, probably not even minor, but it is true that some DACs seemed more analytic or detailed, so instruments appeared more separated or with more air. Might be a brain issue or might be true.

What did change soundstage, depth and separation was when I went from regular amping with passive speakers crossovers to biamping with active CX. A big improvement. Not sure if it's also a brain thing or not, but micro detail increased, and that leads to a "airier" and big soundstage in my case, not mooving the speakers or changing the room a mm. As I say, I did't mesure it or blind tested it so could be just a brain artifact. Makes sense being something real as some pro audio engineers told me, as that's one of the benefits of active crossovers against pasive.

Frecuency response also changed a lot, and that is something I was able to measure and compare.

 

[BDWoody]

Let me preface by saying I'm a physics teacher and lifelong audiophile in my years of listening I have found speaker placement, toe-in, and rake are the single most important factors in nailing a 3-dimensional sound stage.

Welcome!

Gotta agree there. The speaker/room system is where there is often low hanging fruit. Worth getting into REW to see what's going on as suggested.

I read all these subjective reviews (Goldensound and New Record Day's review of the Holo Audio May R2R DAC have nearly taken my money a hundred times) and they make me feel like I'm missing something if I don't upgrade my DAC.

That's what good salespeople do.

The DACs that pull off 3D representations tend to be R2R topology with NOS or superior filters and are usually not so affordable.

What are you basing that on? Any evidence, or its that the 'word on the street?'

The literature on how cognitive bias affects human judgment, even in professionals making life and death decisions, is wide and robust.

Are you saying it is a result of bias and not the actual differences in the electrical signal? I'd agree with that. This is why controlled testing is required, to sort out the 'i know what I hear!' stuff from what might have more meaning.

 

[okok]

every dac outside your mobo is snake oil, no matter the price
every movie is the same as long as the runtime is the same etc
please woke up, this is signal equality

 

[maverickronin]

An absolute trash, garbage teir DAC has distortion and noise components that are 70db quieter than the pure signal. An okay DAC is more like 90db, and a top tier DAC is close to 120db.

The thing is, -70db is incredibly quiet. Like, you will never hear it in a million years quiet. Add that to the fact that noise is generally not that obtrusive and distortion isnt even a factor in subjective audio quality....it's safe to say no DAC has ever made a difference as long as it's putting out enough juice to make your amplifier happy.

This thread is mostly in the context of speakers, but you will hear the noise with sensitive headphones, and especially IEMs. Speakers have a lot more leeway, especially passives.

 

[tallbeardedone]

Welcome!

Gotta agree there. The speaker/room system is where there is often low hanging fruit. Worth getting into REW to see what's going on as suggested.



That's what good salespeople do.



What are you basing that on? Any evidence, or its that the 'word on the street?'


Are you saying it is a result of bias and not the actual differences in the electrical signal? I'd agree with that. This is why controlled testing is required, to sort out the 'i know what I hear!' stuff from what might have more meaning.

Thanks this thread has really helped me jump off the upgrade train and focus on measurable differences I can control (speaker placement within my listening room) and measure (REW). Saving me money and sanity and getting me back to what this whole things in about, listening to the music!

 

[PcChip]

Let me preface by saying I'm a physics teacher and lifelong audiophile in my years of listening I have found speaker placement, toe-in, and rake are the single most important factors in nailing a 3-dimensional sound stage. When listening to a great recording I love the feeling of being INSIDE the room where it was recorded (or inside the headphones of the person who mixed it). Having said that, I am a constant tinkerer and find myself wondering just HOW can I improve the 3-dimensionality of my soundstage in my listening room.

So my question: is it possible for a DAC upgrade (from the internal DAC in my Hegel h390 to, say, a Topping d90se) to improve the DEPTH and WIDTH of my soundstage and the SEPARATION of instruments in three-dimensional sound space? I read all these subjective reviews (Goldensound and New Record Day's review of the Holo Audio May R2R DAC have nearly taken my money a hundred times) and they make me feel like I'm missing something if I don't upgrade my DAC. Is it all subjective crap? I can't get my hands on any DACs to do a blind test to I have to go with you guys here at Audio Science Review. HELP!

the only way to be sure is to borrow a few and put them in your system, then sit back and listen

 

[DonR]

the only way to be sure is to borrow a few and put them in your system, then sit back and listen

and then have someone arrange an ABX test to eliminate any preconceived biases and prepare to be amazed at the non-difference. I agree.