Cables/Wires - Electrical Conduction Vs Magnetic Conduction

[SIY]

Those studies didn't include my wife.

I could not sneak new speaker wire or interconnect cable into my system without her asking "how much did you spend now?".

I mean she could hear the difference outside the room and just passing by.

I got busted every time.

Clever Hans.

 

[kach22i]

If you use a turntable than maybe yes. The Phono preamps in mixture with cartridge and cable impedance could imo have some listenable effect.
At least thats what i can imagine.

My most expensive connection per meter is from turntable to tube preamp with built-in tube phono section, and well worth it.

I can hear the difference, what can I say?

This is why I've attempted to contain the discussion to theory or physics.

I know the crowd here is set on opinion, but also very well versed in science, something not easily found elsewhere.

 

[DonH56]

What are the two cables you compared?

Cartridges tend to look inductive so could interact with the cable capacitance. To a significant degree, enough to be audible? I don't know... Shielding makes a difference for such low-level (relatively) signals depending upon the environment. I have made audible changes in TT cables via better shielding/grounding, including using an extra outer shield connected at just one end to help reduce EMI coupling. Special cases...

 

[tomtoo]

My most expensive connection per meter is from turntable to tube preamp with built-in tube phono section, and well worth it.

I can hear the difference, what can I say?

This is why I've attempted to contain the discussion to theory or physics.

I know the crowd here is set on opinion, but also very well versed in science, something not easily found elsewhere.

Don't know. But it should be measurable without esoteric cable physiks. I'am not a expert.

 

[Thomas savage]

My most expensive connection per meter is from turntable to tube preamp with built-in tube phono section, and well worth it.

I can hear the difference, what can I say?

This is why I've attempted to contain the discussion to theory or physics.

I know the crowd here is set on opinion, but also very well versed in science, something not easily found elsewhere.

It's worth considering the answer lays within.

 

[Wes]

Thank you for the replies gentlemen, I now have a few papers to read, names to look up, a few new terms to understand.

I am in no hurry to do so, this is just a hobby to me.

My experience with interconnect cables and speaker wires tells me there is an audible difference between designs/materials, but I don't know why.

speakers - yes or maybe - it depends on the change in impedance with frequency of the speaker

interconnects - confirmation bias is the likely explanation, tho a competent EE can certainly design an interconnect that will screw up the sound

good practice was to use long interconnects and put the amps close to the speakers; today you'd want long digital lines (or WiFi) not to exceed spec.

or just use a remote so you don't need long lines at all

 

[mansr]

Agreed; skin effect is significant at 20 kHz in the sense that the penetration depth of a 12 AWG wire is such that only about 30% or so of the diameter is used (see thread previously linked for a plot). That is usually more than enough area given the relatively low power and reduced sensitivity we have to 20 kHz signals. But like so many things, the reality of its impact and the marketing of its impact are often miles apart.

Skin effect is only relevant if it causes a significant voltage drop along the wire. In audio applications, the only place that might happen is speaker wires. If the wires are sufficiently thick that their resistance is much lower than the speaker impedance at all frequencies, it doesn't matter even if at 20 kHz it is 100x the DC value. You obviously know this, just elaborating.

 

[DonH56]

Skin effect is only relevant if it causes a significant voltage drop along the wire. In audio applications, the only place that might happen is speaker wires. If the wires are sufficiently thick that their resistance is much lower than the speaker impedance at all frequencies, it doesn't matter even if at 20 kHz it is 100x the DC value. You obviously know this, just elaborating.

Yes, why I used a 12 AWG cable as an example. This is why I hate getting into these discussions; in trying to simplify for non-EEs, I leave too much out or misrepresent an underlying assumption, and the ones who actually know the stuff (rightly) eviscerate the answers. Stoopid Don trick.

 

[FrantzM]

to sum it up ... Cables are cables in Audio... Skin Effect doesn't affect what we hear.

About the sound cables differences in because of material or construction? Please let's not go down that rabbit hole.. Please

 

[Wes]

cables can sound different because of material or construction - for example, crummy connectors can cause the cable to become unplugged

 

[scott wurcer]

and the ones who actually know the stuff (rightly) eviscerate the answers.

Never my intent, it's hard I spent literally 100 or so hours of my time trying to make the connection between the Laplace and z transform intuitive to the average person that wanted to know how IIR filters worked. The only take away for most was simply providing the answers.

 

[mansr]

Never my intent, it's hard I spent literally 100 or so hours of my time trying to make the connection between the Laplace and z transform intuitive to the average person that wanted to know how IIR filters worked. The only take away for most was simply providing the answers.

"The z transform is the discrete-time version of the Laplace transform." How do you take 100 hours to speak those words?

 

[DonH56]

Never my intent, it's hard I spent literally 100 or so hours of my time trying to make the connection between the Laplace and z transform intuitive to the average person that wanted to know how IIR filters worked. The only take away for most was simply providing the answers.

No worries, I have a headache so "eviscerated" was too strong, and I certainly did not take offense at any of the corrections (except to kick myself). And yes clearly you completely understand the problem.

"The z transform is the discrete-time version of the Laplace transform." How do you take 100 hours to speak those words?

First consider that the average person has no idea what are Z-transforms, Laplace transforms, discrete time, sampled systems, Bode plots, FFTs, etc. etc. etc. These articles are for the guy who wants to know how to make steel to understand an axe. He really wants to understand, and we really want to teach him, but it is a long path to enlightenment. I suspect you can find evidence of that in one or two threads on ASR.

 

[mansr]

First consider that the average person has no idea what are Z-transforms, Laplace transforms, discrete time, sampled systems, Bode plots, FFTs, etc. etc. etc. These articles are for the guy who wants to know how to make steel to understand an axe. He really wants to understand, and we really want to teach him, but it is a long path to enlightenment. I suspect you can find evidence of that in one or two threads on ASR.

Surely you've realised by now that sarcasm is my default mode of communication.

FWIW, I have some teaching experience. It was fun, if frustrating at times.

 

[DonH56]

Surely you've realised by now that sarcasm is my default mode of communication.

FWIW, I have some teaching experience. It was fun, if frustrating at times.

Sorry, long day...

One of my more favorite teaching moments: Undergrad circuits class, tough professor, set up a quiz on the next Monday. Someone pointed out it was a holiday so he said OK, Wednesday (MWF course). A few scattered claps followed. He looked disgusted and said that college students are the only people on Earth who want less for their money.

I had similar thoughts when I was giving lectures (some time ago; may do it again if I ever retire).

 

[RayDunzl]

Those little coils of wire around the wires overhead that you sometimes see are actually to improve their transmission characteristics.

And they use only the finest cable lifters:

Should I spiral some 18AWG around my 2AWG speaker cables?

They're five feet long, and partially submerged in the carpet pile..

 

[RayDunzl]

Skin effect is only relevant if it causes a significant voltage drop along the wire. In audio applications, the only place that might happen is speaker wires. If the wires are sufficiently thick that their resistance is much lower than the speaker impedance at all frequencies, it doesn't matter even if at 20 kHz it is 100x the DC value.

Oh, well, I guess I don't need the spirals.

Thanks.

 

[Shadders]

Hi,

The reprinted article by stereophile in 1995 (http://www.tmr-audio.de/pdf/Hawksford_Essex.pdf) has a single photograph

As does the original (https://silversmithaudio.com/content/CableTheory/EssexEchoUnification.pdf)

Jim Le Surf stated on pinkfishmedia (https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/the-myth-of-cables.195456/page-6) that he wrote to Hifi News 1985 noting mistakes in the paper, and they were confirmed by Hifi News.

The mistakes were not understanding how EM waves propagate through metals, and the test equipment setup was incorrect and the photograph supporting the theory was in error.

I am not on pinkfishmedia, so if anyone is, can they ask Jim Audiomisc if the photograph on the original text 1985 is the same as the stereophile one from 1995, and, is the supporting evidence that is in error which indicates that the paper model is invalid or flawed ?

Thanks and regards,
Shadders.

 

[Frgirard]

I am somewhat interested in opinions on cable/wire theory, not so much on how they sound, but the science and or philosophy behind the products.

Let's say the Jeff Smith/Hawksford is in "right field" (Electrical Conduction) and High Fidelity Cables (Magnetic Conduction) is in "left field".

What cable makers are in center field trying to do both?

Doesn't a good cable take both properties into account?

I am a novice at this, please explain it as you would to your mother.

Troll detected

 

[Wes]

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/wirfor.html