BMR Tower vs Revel

[MaxBuck]

Deleted

 

[jcarys]

Loud means different things in different contexts. When we talk about reference levels in movies or certain pieces of classical music, we are talking about very loud peaks of 100+dB that only last for a fraction of a second and only come up occasionally. Most music doesn't have the same kind of dynamic range, so listening at 90dB or whatever will seem loud because it is a relatively large amount of energy being continuously pumped into the room.

These speakers don't get loud enough to do justice to the very dynamic content in movies that make them come alive in a proper system. It's just the way it is.

They are great for music though.

I have researched my system volume levels with a SPL meter many times. Turning up the system to what I consider annoyingly loud, but not painful, I have never seen a 100db spike, at 10 feet from the fronts. Maybe a LFE explosion every now and then, but that's why the sub is there. I will concede that the BMRs may not be enough in a really big room or listening far away, but they seem more than adequate to me even for home theater. If you can point me to a classical recording or a movie with an over 100db peak, I'd love to test it.

 

[Everett T]

I have researched my system volume levels with a SPL meter many times. Turning up the system to what I consider annoyingly loud, but not painful, I have never seen a 100db spike, at 10 feet from the fronts. Maybe a LFE explosion every now and then, but that's why the sub is there. I will concede that the BMRs may not be enough in a really big room or listening far away, but they seem more than adequate to me even for home theater. If you can point me to a classical recording or a movie with an over 100db peak, I'd love to test it.

That's quite normal for most people. It applies to me most of the time and when it dosen't, the room dictates it. Reference level (thx) is a goal, not a function of normality with must of us.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I think the volume discussion started not to be a weakness of the BMRs. They are loud enough to be most things for most people. I certainly would never need louder as I live in an apartment in a city.

The discussion started because the question is what you are getting for the money when you look at the F328Be. With 3x the number of high-quality 8" woofers you are paying for THX reference levels to be possible at 3+ meters. 96 dB @ 1 meter isn't even close to upsetting the woofers - they are barely above 1% THD even in the 30 hz range. Is this useful? Amir had positive comments on the bass quality in his subjective impressions of the F328Be. Some would say that bass distortion below 3% is not audible, others may disagree - I don't know. I also imagine that there is some time in some room that this level of bass volume is called upon (although not in my room).

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I have researched my system volume levels with a SPL meter many times. Turning up the system to what I consider annoyingly loud, but not painful, I have never seen a 100db spike, at 10 feet from the fronts. Maybe a LFE explosion every now and then, but that's why the sub is there. I will concede that the BMRs may not be enough in a really big room or listening far away, but they seem more than adequate to me even for home theater. If you can point me to a classical recording or a movie with an over 100db peak, I'd love to test it.

Try listening to the race scene from Ready Player One

 

[BenB]

Try listening to the race scene from Ready Player One

This would be dangerous to play at loud volumes on ported speakers that don't have high pass filters.

 

[jcarys]

Try listening to the race scene from Ready Player One

The next time the 4K is on sale, I'll get it. I've streamed it and I remember it being incredibly dynamic, but disc is really the only way to go. I'm trying to find the Roger Waters' Amused to Death Blu-ray set that is somewhere in my house, but it's hiding.

 

[mj30250]

After listening to the Revel F328Be and the BMR Tower side by side in the same room for a few days I can easily see the strengths of each.

BMR Towers - The RAAL tweeter adds a slight bit of sheen to the cymbals and high treble. The F328Be tweeter is more subdued. For most of my Jazz listening I prefer the Be tweeter. However, when I play Orchestral music with the BMR Towers like "Barber, Sibelius & Scriabin Symphony No. 1 In One Movement Op. 9" (Samuel Barber), the BMR Tower boxes absolutely disappear and the music is enchanting. It's as if I'm in a hall instead of in front of two boxes. I don't get that same extent of open, smoothness with Orchestral music with the Revel F328Be.

Revel F328Be - These speakers offer more definition and a bit more bite than the BMR Towers - even at lower listening levels. The punch is hard and alive with the F328Be. This makes the F328Be exceptional with rhythmic music like Jazz, funk, electronic music. The F328Be has definition that my BMR Towers can't duplicate at the same SPL. I can increase the volume and get a bit more punch with the BMR Tower but it really doesn't offer the same exciting texture as the Revel F328Be.

For me these two speakers offer two totally different tastes. If I am looking for a smooth sound that oozes from everywhere the BMR Tower is my 1st choice. On the other hand, if I want an exciting speaker with amazing dynamic definition and tons of punch the F328Be would be my choice. While you might think they're both just speakers how can they sound that different? These two certainly offer completely different audio delivery styles to my ear.

Interesting. Were you running both sets full-range or w/ subs?

 

[R Swerdlow]

While the 0-15 degree vertical BMR Tower meauresments are interesting. From a practical standpoint, I notice an immediate difference in the RAAL Tweeter sound when I stand up at the listening position 10 feet away - versus the Revel F328Be tweeter. The BMR Tower RAAL tweeter sits 36-38" off the floor while the Revel F328Be tweeter sits 46-47" off the floor with a very effective wave guide. The flush mounted RAAL ribbon tweeter sounds best when the tweeter is at ear level. The F328Be tweeter with wave guide is noticeably less directional.

The crossover frequencies on the BMR Tower are at 850 and 3,800 Hz. Between those two frequencies, the two mid-range BMR drivers are in use. It is worth remembering that in the BMR Tower, these mid-range drivers are arranged in MTM fashion, above & below the ribbon tweeter.

James Larson showed the losses in SPL he measured as he moved the microphone above (+degrees) and below (-degrees) the tweeter axis (see below). Those losses are in the frequency range of ~1.7 to 4-5 kHz, with the greatest loss shown at just above 2 kHz (see the -15° trace). This frequency range is covered by the mid-range drivers – not the ribbon tweeter.

These losses are just what you would expect with two mid-range drivers arranged above and below a tweeter as an MTM. As you move a microphone or your ears higher or lower, you will notice a loss in the response because the relative distance between the two mid-range drivers changes. Those changes in distance result in changes in phase relationships. As you move further off-axis, you eventually get to point where the changed phases between the two mid drivers results in cancellations. The amount of loss varies with the physical distance between the two mid drivers and the frequencies tested.

The vertical off-axis response of all MTM speakers will do this. It has nothing to do with the tweeter.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Ya, you get about +/- 10-15 degrees with the RAAL according to Erin's review of the old BMR. Some of the drivers have been updated, but the dispersions should be about the same still.

 

[R Swerdlow]

While I understand the MTM issue, the RAAL tweeter is noticeably more directional than the Revel F328Be tweeter. I can replace the BMR Towers with the BMR Monitor with RAAL tweeter and it's evident the RAAL sounds best when the listener's ear is at the same height as the RAAL. The F328Be tweeter implementation is audibly less sensitive to the height of the listener's ear.

I don't doubt your listener's impressions. But, so far, I don't see measurements that support them.

Your original post contained this REW comparison of the BMR Towers (in red) and the Revel F328Be (in green). Above 7 kHz, both tweeters display essentially similar roll off patterns in SPL. This is consistent with James Larson's graph of the BMR Tower.

If the differences you hear were due to tweeters, I would expect to see them in their upper octaves of audio range.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

You're both right. Most of the difference in timbre you hear when you stand up is coming from the MTM configuration. But obviously a 64 mm tall ribbon tweeter will have more restricted vertical dispersion than 25 mm dome unless the wave guide is restricting vertical dispersion substantially, which I don't believe is the case with the Revel. Whether or not restricted vertical dispersion is a plus or a minus is very much unsettled territory. Floyd Toole just throws up his hands when he's asked about this. I don't want people to get the impression that the towers can't be enjoyed while standing up. They sound fine from a normal listening distance. They're not like a big panel speaker or electrostatic where the highs just start to disappear when you stand up.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

You're both right. Most of the difference in timbre you hear when you stand up is coming from the MTM configuration. But obviously a 64 mm tall ribbon tweeter will have more restricted vertical dispersion than 25 mm dome unless the wave guide is restricting vertical dispersion substantially, which I don't believe is the case with the Revel. Whether or not restricted vertical dispersion is a plus or a minus is very much unsettled territory. Floyd Toole just throws up his hands when he's asked about this. I don't want people to get the impression that the towers can't be enjoyed while standing up. They sound fine from a normal listening distance. They're not like a big panel speaker or electrostatic where the highs just start to disappear when you stand up.

Mine even sound amazing in my bedroom (around the corner) folding laundry, or sitting outside with the windows open doing work

 

[McFly]

You're both right. Most of the difference in timbre you hear when you stand up is coming from the MTM configuration. But obviously a 64 mm tall ribbon tweeter will have more restricted vertical dispersion than 25 mm dome unless the wave guide is restricting vertical dispersion substantially, which I don't believe is the case with the Revel. Whether or not restricted vertical dispersion is a plus or a minus is very much unsettled territory. Floyd Toole just throws up his hands when he's asked about this. I don't want people to get the impression that the towers can't be enjoyed while standing up. They sound fine from a normal listening distance. They're not like a big panel speaker or electrostatic where the highs just start to disappear when you stand up.

People like to be critical. I think you've done an amazing job with the BMR Tower. If I could hear a pair down here in NZ, I would. And the cabinets look amazing. Take a bow. And sell many.

Re vertical dispersion - the jury is most certainly still out. My ELI5 take on it is - we like to watch in widescreen, and our ears probably like to hear the same way. Wide horizontal and narrow vertical should sound the most natural. Who'd doing jumping jacks when listening to their music? We sit down and listen. Outdoors has no ceiling, and sounds the best IMO.

 

[Lsc]

I think while you can compare any two speakers, these speakers aren’t really comparable unless you want to qualify everything.

 

[tktran303]

I’ve heard the F328Be.


Have the tweeter height matched and maximum SPL level level matched and I suspect the differences are much smaller.

Run them full close to full tilt without a subwoofer and the one with triple 8” woofers will sound more “effortless”; for lack of a better word.

My 2 cents: the in room response is incomplete, as a explanation of audible differences. You need a spinrorama, but even then it is only slightly less complete- differences are best explained by the sensitivity differences and the tweeter height.

For those with deeper pockets; triple the price, I think Dennis could smash one out of the park if he followed a typical WWWMT cone/dome design

 

[Lsc]

I have a great deal of respect for Dennis Murphy and I was looking at his speakers going back a few years.

I’m not sure if he would have an advantage over the team of engineers at Revel along with their resources. It’s one thing to produce speakers costing $16,000 / pair…it’s another to be able to sell them and make a profit.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I have a great deal of respect for Dennis Murphy and I was looking at his speakers going back a few years.

I’m not sure if he would have an advantage over the team of engineers at Revel along with their resources. It’s one thing to produce speakers costing $16,000 / pair…it’s another to be able to sell them and make a profit.

I can't imagine I know anything that that the Revel engineers don't know. The issue here, if there is one, is value and design philosophy--what qualities are you trying to emphasize? My priority is to achieve the broadest and most even horizontal radiation as possible without resorting to a wave wave guide for the even part. Plus I like to provide deep bass response at a reasonable cost even if that means sacrificing sensitivity and power handling.

 

[Lsc]

I can't imagine I know anything that that the Revel engineers don't know. The issue here, if there is one, is value and design philosophy--what qualities are you trying to emphasize? My priority is to achieve the broadest and most even horizontal radiation as possible without resorting to a wave wave guide for the even part. Plus I like to provide deep bass response at a reasonable cost even if that means sacrificing sensitivity and power handling.

Like I said I have a ton of respect for you and your speakers.

I’m nowhere near you or even any engineer. I’m an end user ie consumer of goods. The best thing I like about Revels in general and more specifically my salons is that they are dynamic, have great bass and sound very natural. The models with beryllium tweeters like my salons and the F228Be that I used to have, I can listen to them loud (sometimes very loud) without any fatigue. Also, they make great, capable center channels to go with their main speakers so they are equally good for movies and music.

 

[FrantzM]

A bit of perpective ..
The BMR towers are $4,000 , likely to your doostep in the USA. The Revel 328Be, is perhaps $15K to your doorstep. Knowing wat we know now of both companies, this is an accomplishment for the BMR Towers, to be in a comparison with the Revel 328Be .... and to hold its own.
With a budget of $15K. You can have a pair of BMR plus a quartet of serious subwoofers , the lot DSP-corrected by a very knowledgeable person, no-less, resulting in a top-flight SOTA, speaker system that could rival/challenge the Revel 328Be, perhaps not in SPL but everywhere else. You may even have money left for a serious AVR like the Denon X-4700. That is how good and in the face of it, cost-effective, the BMR Towers are. Even in this Science-leaning forum, the bias is present... Genelec, Revel, Neuman, JBL... is the knee-jerk reaction when it comes to speakers. it is true that these companies produce good to superlative products, BMR belongs to that group of compagnies that produce excellent products. They deserve serious considerations and more mentions.

Peace.