Best current phono pre under $600?

[BDWoody]

I hope I get the chance to hear one of those Puffins anon.
It's just a tad too 'spensive to rationalize just buyin' one and tryin' it out.

Not sure who has it now, but there's one that looks to be on permanent tour. Put yourself on the list to get it. It's pretty cool.

 

[BobPM]

"sloppy" Gosh, lets just spend $$$ to set up perfect double blind tests with calibrated switching equipment. I get it that you want perfect tests, but I do not agree that lesser tests that individuals can actually attempt are useless. This was a fair comparison that tried to limit the really gross variables. As to averaging, I strongly disagree. This is a very appropriate way to deal with variables and consistent results can provide important conclusions. Indeed these statistical approaches are often done to address testing limitations. When I was a practicing geophysicist, adjusting and summing datasets collected years apart using various statistical methodologies was common practice.

 

[LTig]

As to averaging, I strongly disagree. This is a very appropriate way to deal with variables and consistent results can provide important conclusions. Indeed these statistical approaches are often done to address testing limitations. When I was a practicing geophysicist, adjusting and summing datasets collected years apart using various statistical methodologies was common practice.

This is valid for hard facts (numbers), not subjective opinions.

 

[BobPM]

No. This is what, for example, golden ear tests do. Repeated identification of subjective differences proves that the choice is not random.

 

[BobPM]

I give up on trying to counter the effort here to pretend modestly subjective tests are entirely worthless.

The Darlington MM-6 is much less expensive than the Puffin and many others mentioned in this thread, and I think it sounds great. YMMV.

 

[watchnerd]

In the analog area (turntables, cartridges, phono-preamps), the differences are often more pronounced, and often significant enough to notice based on a simple subjective comparison. In my opinion, the Darlington was noticeably different and better. To say its meaningless is simply wrong in some contexts. My background is as an exploration geophysicist (use of low frequency sound to image the near surface), and later as an attorney.

In the analog realm...

When I think I hear a difference that lies on the border between legitimate perception and placebo, I make a digital rip of the rest of the analog chain, and then see if I can pass a level-matched ABX test using comparison test software.

The last time I did it was comparing two DSP phono stages. The files were matched to within 0.12 dB. I'm able to discriminate between them under some very specific musical sections.

It's pretty easy to test this stuff yourself and, while not methodologically flawless, serves as a preliminary smoke test.

 

[watchnerd]

I hope I get the chance to hear one of those Puffins anon.
It's just a tad too 'spensive to rationalize just buyin' one and tryin' it out.

There are rips on ASR made from Puffins.

I've got a few up here and there.

So you can check those out to see how it sounds.

There is one that is the same song through the Puffin vs Devialet.

 

[BobPM]

Not a bad idea. I don't have a a/d converter, but it might be worth getting one.

 

[LTig]

No. This is what, for example, golden ear tests do. Repeated identification of subjective differences proves that the choice is not random.

It proves that the choice taken with additional information (like looks and price) is not random. It does not prove whether choices taken with rigorous controls (using only the ears) would be statistically significant.

 

[Bob from Florida]

BobPM - I took tour of the Darlington site to research the MM-6. They certainly do a good job of marketing their offerings. Almost got me to order one to evaluate - what gave me pause was the lack of protection during power on and off. I don't understand leaving that out. The extra $10 would be money well spent. From your experience, how bad is the power on and off transient?

 

[BobPM]

So far, haven't noticed any sound or response from turning it on or off. Takes a few seconds for sound to come through after the switch is flipped. While I usually have the mute button on the Freya+ engaged while dropping the needle, I have forgotten to turn on the pre and still didn't hear any pops or noise when I turned it on.

 

[BobPM]

You should email the owner. He was very responsive when I was considering the purchase.

 

[abdo123]

Genuine question, if the best cartidages out there can achieve ~80 db SNR at the best possible conditions, what's the point of having this discussion when the Cambridge audio duo exists at 90 dB SINAD for 300$?

sure there is like +/- 0.3 dB RIAA EQ (at very low or very high frequencies) but that doesn't matter at all since it shouldn't be audible.

 

[BobPM]

Not sure of the proper answer. Many here believe perfect reproduction is the goal. I have a very high sinad dac (Schiit Modius) that goes through my Feya+ preamp into a high Sinad NC-400. I can get very transparent reproduction when wanted. However, I sometimes like to choose the tubes from the Freya+ and find that it sounds quite good to me. Maybe not perfect, but pleasant and fun, and I know I am probably adding distortion. Similarly, I sometimes sit and listen to records and find myself captivated by the experience. Clearly they are less transparent. Not sure why it connects more emotionally at times, although I heard about a study that found there was some low level of distortion that was preferred to the more transparent reproduction by the participants.

In my opinion, phono pre-amps, along with turntables and cartridges, tend to have greater variability and are therefore more subjective in character than are good DACs and amps. Some subjective comments I have read on the Cambridge complain it's somewhat flat in the mid range. Totally subjective comments, but like tubes, may represent an actual experience. As to the MM-6, for all I know it may measure better than the Duo, but won't know that unless and until someone tests it. I bought one because when I am scratching the analog itch, the subjective impression is important to me, and the review I read was very positive. If I want more transparent reproduction, I'll listen via the DAC.

My opinion generally is that if it measures bad, the manufacturer has some explaining to do. If it measures above average, then I like to have at least one person affirm that they think it sounds good. If you think anything less than double-blind tests are useless, see above, then until something measures better than the duo, your search has ended. I believe I hear something that makes this sound really good, maybe confirmation bias, but it sure doesn't sound flat or lifeless. That said, I find ASR so valuable because Amir provides the measurements that can tell you if your equipment is all hype or actually has some basic quality. See Chord's phono pre. This ability to call junk junk is a huge contribution to the hobby. Is it the only thing that matters? You'll have to answer that for yourself.

 

[abdo123]

Not sure of the proper answer. Many here believe perfect reproduction is the goal. I have a very high sinad dac (Schiit Modius) that goes through my Feya+ preamp into a high Sinad NC-400. I can get very transparent reproduction when wanted. However, I sometimes like to choose the tubes from the Freya+ and find that it sounds quite good to me. Maybe not perfect, but pleasant and fun, and I know I am probably adding distortion. Similarly, I sometimes sit and listen to records and find myself captivated by the experience. Clearly they are less transparent. Not sure why it connects more emotionally at times, although I heard about a study that found there was some low level of distortion that was preferred to the more transparent reproduction by the participants.

In my opinion, phono pre-amps, along with turntables and cartridges, tend to have greater variability and are therefore more subjective in character than are good DACs and amps. Some subjective comments I have read on the Cambridge complain it's somewhat flat in the mid range. Totally subjective comments, but like tubes, may represent an actual experience. As to the MM-6, for all I know it may measure better than the Duo, but won't know that unless and until someone tests it. I bought one because when I am scratching the analog itch, the subjective impression is important to me, and the review I read was very positive. If I want more transparent reproduction, I'll listen via the DAC.

My opinion generally is that if it measures bad, the manufacturer has some explaining to do. If it measures above average, then I like to have at least one person affirm that they think it sounds good. If you think anything less than double-blind tests are useless, see above, then until something measures better than the duo, your search has ended. I believe I hear something that makes this sound really good, maybe confirmation bias, but it sure doesn't sound flat or lifeless. That said, I find ASR so valuable because Amir provides the measurements that can tell you if your equipment is all hype or actually has some basic quality. See Chord's phono pre. This ability to call junk junk is a huge contribution to the hobby. Is it the only thing that matters? You'll have to answer that for yourself.

But pre-amps (including phono-stages) should not add coloration at all, they really should just amplify what's already there.

Cartridges are colored af, so I would definitely appreciate such discussion over cartridges.

In my opinion, you need a transparent phono-stage to determine which cartridge you should get. Otherwise you will spend years matching your colored phono stage to your even more colored cartridge.

As many people have mentioned here already, people are using DSP RIAA just to get the most accurate correction possible, because it's really not a subtle difference between (inaccurate) phono-stages.

 

[Bob from Florida]

So far, haven't noticed any sound or response from turning it on or off. Takes a few seconds for sound to come through after the switch is flipped. While I usually have the mute button on the Freya+ engaged while dropping the needle, I have forgotten to turn on the pre and still didn't hear any pops or noise when I turned it on.

Under the FQA category the site mentions the DC transient that occurs upon power on or power off. The site says “gentle” but I asked since you own one. I once saw a $8000 Playback Design’s CD player blow both mid-woofers on a pair of Reference 3A Grand Veena’s when it was switched off with a powerful solid state integrated on. Sounded like a canon shot in the listening room. Pretty simple to keep this from happening- think mute relay on the output....

 

[Bob from Florida]

But pre-amps (including phono-stages) should not add coloration at all, they really should just amplify what's already there.

Cartridges are colored af, so I would definitely appreciate such discussion over cartridges.

In my opinion, you need a transparent phono-stage to determine which cartridge you should get. Otherwise you will spend years matching your colored phono stage to your even more colored cartridge.

As many people have mentioned here already, people are using DSP RIAA just to get the most accurate correction possible, because it's really not a subtle difference between (inaccurate) phono-stages.

A good phono stage is the following.
1. Dead Quiet!
2. Adequate gain and loading for your cartridge choice.
3. Sufficient headroom in the first gain stage - before RIAA correction - no clipping allowed.
4. Flat frequency response and headroom after RIAA correction.

Assuming frequency response is good, low noise and headroom are the biggest differences between phono stages. Set your turntable up correctly and enjoy the music.

 

[Pokee1016]

If I may comment, I have been in the hi-fi hobby since the mid 70's. I've worked in the industry intermittently for four decades and as much as I try to digest the recent trend in anti-subjectivism I find it increasingly difficult to stomach. This nonsense that somebody can't possibly "hear" the difference between two components is nauseating. The idea that all DAC's should sound the same, nobody can detect anything above 44.1, cables don't make a difference, etc. unless you can prove it somehow in a double blind test with level matching is silly. I have cycled through so much gear over the past decades that I have long lost count. I can tell quite definitively and quickly if something sounds better or more to my liking than another piece of gear without much hesitation or concern. There seems to be this young school of "experts" that claim to know far more than they know and that get far more excited about measured performance than the actual sound of any given piece of Hi-fi gear. Cables make a difference (including digital cables) and no two phono preamps (especially phono preamps) sound the same. Careful and critical listening is just as much an acquired skill as is wine tasting, cooking or anything else in this lifetime. It used to be that the opinions of industry veterans were valued, as they should be but just as with most things these days we have a new crop of experts that haven't fully developed a sense of critical listening, never mind a sense of respectful communication. I have ordered a pp from Darlington Labs in part due to the organic, homegrown made in the USA nature of the business and in part due to the obvious level of build quality and design choices apparent as well as initial impressions from customers. I look forwrd to receiving and auditioning the unit.

 

[LTig]

If I may comment, I have been in the hi-fi hobby since the mid 70's. I've worked in the industry intermittently for four decades and as much as I try to digest the recent trend in anti-subjectivism I find it increasingly difficult to stomach. This nonsense that somebody can't possibly "hear" the difference between two components is nauseating. The idea that all DAC's should sound the same, nobody can detect anything above 44.1, cables don't make a difference, etc. unless you can prove it somehow in a double blind test with level matching is silly. I have cycled through so much gear over the past decades that I have long lost count. I can tell quite definitively and quickly if something sounds better or more to my liking than another piece of gear without much hesitation or concern. There seems to be this young school of "experts" that claim to know far more than they know and that get far more excited about measured performance than the actual sound of any given piece of Hi-fi gear. Cables make a difference (including digital cables) and no two phono preamps (especially phono preamps) sound the same. Careful and critical listening is just as much an acquired skill as is wine tasting, cooking or anything else in this lifetime. It used to be that the opinions of industry veterans were valued, as they should be but just as with most things these days we have a new crop of experts that haven't fully developed a sense of critical listening, never mind a sense of respectful communication. I have ordered a pp from Darlington Labs in part due to the organic, homegrown made in the USA nature of the business and in part due to the obvious level of build quality and design choices apparent as well as initial impressions from customers. I look forwrd to receiving and auditioning the unit.

Read this thread first, then post again.

 

[abdo123]

If I may comment, I have been in the hi-fi hobby since the mid 70's. I've worked in the industry intermittently for four decades and as much as I try to digest the recent trend in anti-subjectivism I find it increasingly difficult to stomach. This nonsense that somebody can't possibly "hear" the difference between two components is nauseating. The idea that all DAC's should sound the same, nobody can detect anything above 44.1, cables don't make a difference, etc. unless you can prove it somehow in a double blind test with level matching is silly. I have cycled through so much gear over the past decades that I have long lost count. I can tell quite definitively and quickly if something sounds better or more to my liking than another piece of gear without much hesitation or concern. There seems to be this young school of "experts" that claim to know far more than they know and that get far more excited about measured performance than the actual sound of any given piece of Hi-fi gear. Cables make a difference (including digital cables) and no two phono preamps (especially phono preamps) sound the same. Careful and critical listening is just as much an acquired skill as is wine tasting, cooking or anything else in this lifetime. It used to be that the opinions of industry veterans were valued, as they should be but just as with most things these days we have a new crop of experts that haven't fully developed a sense of critical listening, never mind a sense of respectful communication. I have ordered a pp from Darlington Labs in part due to the organic, homegrown made in the USA nature of the business and in part due to the obvious level of build quality and design choices apparent as well as initial impressions from customers. I look forwrd to receiving and auditioning the unit.

If you're referring to me, then i personally have the Cambridge Audio Duo, and it sounds fucking fantastic.

For me, measurements are important for two reasons. First, they let me know without perceptual bias how well a piece of equipment performs. Second, Hifi for me is the ability to reproduce a track exactly the same way the artist intended. I don't want to play DJ while i listen to music and i don't want gear that perceptually alter the sound.

Furthermore, when you say 'X makes difference Y' a lot of people would want more evidence than 'because I said so' as it works with every other industry.

People don't care for opinions, they want facts. I don't want to 'think' that my gear is good enough, i want to KNOW that my gear is good enough. Again like every other industry.