Benefits of using expensive DACs

[krabapple]

Lucky you. Unfortunately I have to spend much more than that to be satisfied. Been doing hifi for a long time and my system has become better and better over the decades. It's also become more and more expensive. I recall in my younger, poorer days being perfectly happy with a much more modest system.


I think the OP asks about spending more and getting a better DAC. Yes, one could do this, but more expensive doesn't necessarily translate to better sounding. Some kit is worth the additional cost, but a lot of it isn't. In some cases, it could be worse.

Some kit is less expensive than expensive kit but objectively performs just as well.

Some cheaper kit may even outperform some expensive kit .

So how is it 'worth the additional cost' to buy the expensive kit? Are you saying there are some expensive DACs that simply cannot be audibly matched by a cheaper DAC?

(I kind of knew your argument was going to end up being a subjective one about 'satisfaction'. )

 

[akamatsu]

It's hard to quantify but I know my Denafrips Pontus Ii sounds better than my Topping D90.

It has less high end brittleness and bite but has much better instrument separation, soundstage and vocal resolution. So is the more expensive Pontus better or nicer? So maybe those qualities are what a more expensive DAC starts to get you. I've had it about six months now and the Pontus Ii with FPGA upgrade is probably my endgame DAC. Certainly financially LoL. Im not spending Terminator money.

The step up from the Topping sounded much nicer both through my two channel system and headphone system.

Apparently, it's all your imagination, as is my similar experience with some DACs sounding better than others. I just got word that all DACs sound the same. Except for broken ones.

 

[krabapple]

Apparently, it's all your imagination, as is my similar experience with some DACs sounding better than others. I just got word that all DACs sound the same. Except for broken ones.

And yet you've been here for 3 years.

 

[akamatsu]

And yet you've been here for 3 years.

I don't read nor participate in the discussions much. I mostly enjoy Amir's reviews.

 

[oleg87]

So as long as it's functioning as it should, that is, not broken, then they all sound the same?

Depends on whether its design reproduces the correct analog signal without (realistically) human-audible deviations. This seems to be, far more often than not, the design goal for DACs. Hitting this mark does not require anything expensive or exotic. This is what "solved problem" means - a dirt-cheap commodity chip in the hands of an attentive designer can handily do this.

Of course, the audio industry is a perverse one, and astronomically expensive DACs are more likely to miss that mark because its designers feel compelled to reinvent the square wheel or straight up ignore the theoretical basis of accurate A/D conversion.

 

[akamatsu]

Some kit is less expensive than expensive kit but objectively performs just as well.

Some cheaper kit may even outperform some expensive kit .

So how is it 'worth the additional cost' to buy the expensive kit? Are you saying there are some expensive DACs that simply cannot be audibly matched by a cheaper DAC?

(I kind of knew your argument was going to end up being a subjective one about 'satisfaction'. )

I've heard a $5k system that I preferred over a $100k+ system. How would one measure performance objectively? If one likes the sound of the expensive kit more than a less expensive piece of kit, then they may be willing to pay the extra to get the sound that they prefer. There may very well be an expensive DAC that can't be matched by a cheaper DAC. I don't know. I just enjoy listening to music at home. This is where the hifi system performs.

 

[akamatsu]

Depends on whether its design reproduces the correct analog signal without human-audible deviations. Hitting this mark does not require anything expensive or exotic. This is what "solved problem" means - a dirt-cheap commodity chip in the hands of a careful designer can handily do this.

Of course, the audio industry is a perverse one, and astronomically expensive DACs are more likely to miss that mark because its designers feel compelled to reinvent the square wheel or straight up ignore the theoretical basis of accurate A/D conversion.

They all sound the same is what I was told. A $10 DAC will sound the same as one costing thousands.

 

[dshreter]

If comparing blindly, I don't think I could even distinguish between this (Sony's first consumer CD player) and the highest SINAD DAC ever produced... assuming both are level matched connected to appropriate amplification, blah blah blah.

 

[A Surfer]

If comparing blindly, I don't think I could even distinguish between this CD player and the highest SINAD DAC ever produced... assuming both are level matched connected to appropriate amplification, blah blah blah.
View attachment 402838

Good chance you couldn't. Almost certainly not in actual casual listening.

 

[JustJones]

I don't read nor participate in the discussions much. I mostly enjoy Amir's reviews.

Did you form an opinion on DACs having a sound signature after reading all the reviews of the numerous DACs he's measured ?

 

[akamatsu]

Did you form an opinion on DACs having a sound signature after reading all the reviews of the numerous DACs he's measured ?

I don't formulate opinions based on reviews.

 

[Beave]

They all sound the same is what I was told. A $10 DAC will sound the same as one costing thousands.

Not really arguing in good faith here, are you?



Multiple caveats have been given here (DACs must measure sufficiently well, not be broken, be level-matched for comparisons, etc), yet you continue to ignore them.

 

[akamatsu]

Not really arguing in good faith here, are you?



Multiple caveats have been given here (DACs must measure sufficiently well, not be broken, be level-matched for comparisons, etc), yet you continue to ignore them.

So a $10 DAC that isn't broken, measures sufficiently well, and is level-matched will sound the same as one costing thousands.

The one who made the assertion didn't say anything about measuring sufficiently well, nor be level-matched. But I can go along with it as added qualifications. So if your qualifications are met, do all DACs sound the same in your opinion?

 

[dshreter]

So a $10 DAC that isn't broken, measures sufficiently well, and is level-matched will sound the same as one costing thousands.

The one who made the assertion didn't say anything about measuring sufficiently well, nor be level-matched. But I can go along with it as added qualifications. So if your qualifications are met, do all DACs sound the same in your opinion?

They do. It’s not really an opinion though, it is a fact that has been proven rigorously.

 

[akamatsu]

They do. It’s not really an opinion though, it is a fact that has been proven rigorously.

How was it proven?

 

[oleg87]

So a $10 DAC that isn't broken, measures sufficiently well, and is level-matched will sound the same as one costing thousands.

Yes (and again, assume an implicit "in a blind and level matched comparison" in all such statements). That is a function of measured performance, not price. In this industry, the two have very little to do with each other.

 

[akamatsu]

They do. It’s not really an opinion though, it is a fact that has been proven rigorously.

I just saw that I asked the question of Beav, and you replied. It's hard to maintain any continuity in a discussion if folks exit and enter seemingly randomly.

 

[Beave]

So a $10 DAC that isn't broken, measures sufficiently well, and is level-matched will sound the same as one costing thousands.

The one who made the assertion didn't say anything about measuring sufficiently well, nor be level-matched. But I can go along with it as added qualifications. So if your qualifications are met, do all DACs sound the same in your opinion?

Like I said, you're clearly not arguing in good faith.

Nice try, though. Trolling is fun!

 

[akamatsu]

Yes. (once again assume the implict "in a blind and level matched comparison") That is a function of measured performance, not price. In this industry, the two have very little to do with each other.

What is measured performance? How does one measure performance. I asked that same question of another earlier.

 

[antcollinet]

recall in my younger, poorer days being perfectly happy with a much more modest system.

Science and engineering have moved on.

There are £100 (and much lower priced) DACS that objectively sound identical to any good DAC at any price. (Choose your most expensive DAC you like - and assuming it is not broken (excessive distortion, noise or non flat frequency response) and it will sound identical to a £55 Fosi Dongle. (Even to you, if you listen with controls)

This is not opinion, this is based on measurements, and understanding what those measurements tell us about the engineering of the devices, combined with a modicum of understanding of the capabilities (and fallibility) of the human auditory system.