Benefits of using expensive DACs

[Beave]

I just saw that I asked the question of Beav, and you replied. It's hard to maintain any continuity in a discussion if folks exit and enter seemingly randomly.

It's like you've never participated in an online forum before.

 

[dshreter]

I just saw that I asked the question of Beav, and you replied. It's hard to maintain any continuity in a discussion if folks exit and enter seemingly randomly.

I’m sorry if this was confusing. It’s typical in a forum to engage in the exchange of ideas as a group. If you want 1:1, then you can use the ‘Start Conversation’ feature

 

[ahofer]

This will be moving over to the DAC Sound Signature thread shortly, I suspect.

 

[akamatsu]

Science and engineering have moved on.

There are £100 (and much lower priced) DACS that objectively sound identical to any good DAC at any price. (Choose your most expensive DAC you like - and assuming it is not broken (excessive distortion, noise or non flat frequency response) and it will sound identical to a £55 Fosi Dongle.

This is not opinion, this is based on measurements, and understanding what those measurements tell us about the engineering of the devices, combined with a modicum of understanding of the capabilities (and failings) of the human auditory system.

It sure does, thank goodness. Didn't even have a DAC back then.

 

[dshreter]

What is measured performance? How does one measure performance. I asked that same question of another earlier.

With a performance measurer, duh

 

[Beave]

What is measured performance? How does one measure performance. I asked that same question of another earlier.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/

 

[akamatsu]

I’m sorry if this was confusing. It’s typical in a forum to engage in the exchange of ideas as a group. If you want 1:1, then you can use the ‘Start Conversation’ feature

Thanks for that. I should've checked who was responding to the question. Entirely my oversight.

 

[antcollinet]

I could say that DAC A sounds better than DAC B. Would you be willing to except that assertion for the sake of furthering the discussion?

I'm sure we could all accept that you perceive that difference when you are undertaking uncontrolled listening.


For the sake of further discussion - are you prepared to accept the possibility that your perception of difference will vanish when you listen with controls for human auditory biases? (accurately level matched and blind as a minimum set of controls)

 

[unpluggged]

Can we just stop feeding the troll?

 

[ahofer]

These two threads are useful in this sort of discussion about how we claim to know that things that measure similarly will sound similar or audibly indistinguishable.

Catalogue of blind tests

I thought this thread on Head-Fi was a valiant effort to put together blind tests that have been performed over the years. Given that there have been many more (I'm thinking Archimago's tests, among others), it would be fun to open source a complete list...

audiosciencereview.com

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

audiosciencereview.com

And if you want to argue about measurements, boy do we have a thread for that:

Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Dear fellow audio scientists, I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think. I have listened to a couple of decent...

audiosciencereview.com

And the aforementioned DAC thread:

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

audiosciencereview.com

Those last two are ‘garbage collector’ threads, so the members can move on elsewhere and not argue with audio superstitions.

 

[antcollinet]

So a $10 DAC that isn't broken, measures sufficiently well, and is level-matched will sound the same as one costing thousands.

Absolutely - if you compare with just your ears, and not relying on your eyes. (IE not knowing which one you are listening to) (And assuming neither is doing any DSP to intentionally alter the sound - such as room correction)

 

[akamatsu]

I'm sure we could all accept that you perceive that difference when you are undertaking uncontrolled listening.


For the sake of further discussion - are you prepared to accept the possibility that your perception of difference will vanish when you listen with controls for human auditory biases? (accurately level matched and blind as a minimum set of controls)

The example I could cite was experienced twice in two different locations. Unfortunately, listening was done sighted. I always ask myself, "could this pass a blind test?" Usually the answer is "no." But sometimes I think there's enough of a difference that I could hear a difference in a controlled test. That my experience was had sighted, I can't say that anyone would reach the same conclusion as I did. So I asked the person who first questioned me if they would be willing to listen to what I heard first. If they don't hear a difference, then there would be no basis for continuing the discussion as to how that difference came about. They were not willing.

 

[JustJones]

I don't read nor participate in the discussions much. I mostly enjoy Amir's reviews.

Maybe start here then perhaps you might get a smidgen of information from the reviews you enjoy.

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[akamatsu]

Can we just stop feeding the troll?

Apparently not.

 

[akamatsu]

Maybe start here then perhaps you might get a smidgen of information from the reviews you enjoy.

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

audiosciencereview.com

As an engineer, I enjoy reading, on a hfi forum no less, the work of the good engineer that is Amir. He states what he's testing, how he's testing, what test equipment is being used. He then presents the test results. It is completely repeatable. This kind of integrity is very refreshing.

 

[antcollinet]

The example I could cite was experienced twice in two different locations. Unfortunately, listening was done sighted. I always ask myself, "could this pass a blind test?" Usually the answer in "no." But sometimes I think there's enough of a difference that I could hear a difference in a controlled test. That my experience was had sighted, I can't say that anyone would reach the same conclusion as I did. So I asked the person who first questioned me if they would be willing to listen to what I heard first. If they don't hear a difference, then there would be no basis for continuing the discussion as to how that difference came about. They were not willing.

Just to be clear, a blind test doesn't make it more difficult to hear a genuine difference.

What it does though is to eliminate the impact of perceptive biases - with which your brain alters your perception of the sound, even though the sound reaching your ears is identical. It does this based on what you know and/or believe about what you are listening to. This is not an individuals weakness of hearing - it happens to all humans all the time. It is how our senses work.

Oh, and those perceptive biases can create differences that are obvious. So obvious, they must be real. That of course we would be able to hear in a blind test. Until we find out we can't

 

[akamatsu]

Just to be clear, a blind test doesn't make it more difficult to hear a genuine difference.

What it does though is to eliminate the impact of perceptive biases - with which your brain alters your perception of the sound, even though the sound reaching your ears is identical. It does this based on what you know and/or believe about what you are listening to. This is not an individuals weakness of hearing - it happens to all humans. It is how our senses work.

Yes. I am well aware of the trap that is expectation bias. I have written much about on a defunct hifi forum. I realize that EB can't be turned off, ever. It's always there at work. The best one can do is to be aware of it. I am all too aware of my own expectation bias. That is why I ask the question of myself. I remember very well all the time wasted thinking I could hear a difference in a sighted listen.

 

[oleg87]

It is a frustrating part of this discussion, but sighted bias controls are not optional if you want to compare something like DACs.
Being immune to effects of sighted bias is not a skill issue. I know perfectly well that it is a phenomenon, but if I try to conduct such comparisons, I will hear differences (that I might describe in terms like soundstage or layering - phrases that I've come to think are bright red flags in subjective evaluations) that I feel quite confident I can hear, but vanish when I turn on the controls.

 

[AdamG]

What is measured performance? How does one measure performance. I asked that same question of another earlier.

You have resources to read/view to learn the answers to your questions. All delivered by our Host. Enjoy the library.

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Or you can just keep on Trolling and find a different answer to your questions. Your call.

 

[akamatsu]

You have resources to read/view to learn the answers to your questions. All delivered by our Host. Enjoy the library.

Master List of Instructional Teaching Video presentations (How to read and interpret/understand all the Graphs and Charts!

Collection of Amir’s instructional Videos for reference, refresher and new members: (“Behind the Curtain @ ASR University”) Welcome New and returning Members of ASR. Our Host Amir has put together a collection of comprehensive instructional videos that might help new and returning Members...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Or you can just keep on Trolling and find a different answer to your questions. Your call.

Amir's videos are awesome! Thanks for all this.