AVR / 2ch setup question

[Left]

Back to the original post.

Besides the -- probably difficult to avoid -- latency imposed by the minidsp, the other insult is MiniDSP's lack of either HT mode or per input volumes.

Inserting the MiniDSP downstream means that it's volume should be set near max. But that means you risk blowing your speakers when you change inputs. As a thought experiment I have wondered what would happen if you put the AVR downstream of the MiniDSP and placed the AVR in a Dolby Prologic mode. Master volume could now be set soley from the MinuDSP. If someone wants to try this for giggles and report back, I would feel some twisted pleasure.

 

[-Matt-]

The OP wasn't suggesting either AVR downstream of miniDSP or vice versa. The suggestion was that they were independant sources with a power amp downstream.

The question was whether a Y-splitter cable would work. Let's say the AVR is in use... The problem is that even if the miniDSP is turned off, it still acts as a bunch of electronic components attached in parallel to the input of the power amp. The signal into the power amp will potentially be modified in an unknown way by the undefined impedance that this adds. It might even act differently depending on the mode the miniDSP was in when it was shut down. There is also the potential of causing ground loops or even of damaging one or both devices (though unlikely). In all likelihood, it would probably work, but I wouldn't consider it worth the risk.

If the Topping Pre90 suggested previously is too costly as a Y-splitter alternative, then perhaps this would be better:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../little-bear-mc3-xlr-rca-switch-review.45636/

 

[Miker 1102]

1. I don't understand how you are going to control subwoofer level and delay with two different room correction systems - does the Flex have that full functionality?
2. Are you using Audyssey on the Denon and DIRAC on the MiniDSP? Or are you going to pay for DIRAC twice?
3. Using y-cables is not advised, as the pre-amp sections will interact, even if one device is off.
4. Most importantly -- how are you using a separate DAC when the MiniDSP needs to work in the digital realm...in other words, you are either using the DAC in the MiniDSP or, even worse, you are using your DAC, redigitizing the signal in the MiniDSP, and THEN using the MiniDSP's DAC.

It seems like a lot of complexity and expense when you likely end up with poorer audio quality than just using the Denon.

I always get lost on this part. Is the avr dac processing this signal and then it's being resampled and then sent to a different dac? I am not smart enough to do this.

 

[Miker 1102]

Yes. No more information beyond "two electronics chains, one set of speakers" is necessary.



The mistake above is putting dumbass audiophool neuroses on the same plane as "thinking."



Let's make a deal that one can't bitch and moan about “expensive” when one is throwing money away on dumb and pointless duplication of basic functionality, OK?



So sell it (perhaps to fund a "better" set of electronics for all the content), or keep in a closet in reserve in case the new electronics break (addressing your last point, which I did not quote, completely).



We are talking about two sets of crap driving one set of speakers. Given that, your stated concern (to the extent it is not illusory) about a given AVR's ability to drive the chosen speakers obviously applies to all program, not just mere 2-channel. So use the damn preouts on the AVR to drive the separate amp. And if your AVR doesn't have preouts, sell it (see above) and buy a suitable one.



Bullshit. Writing as someone with extensive experience with most flavors of both systems*, there's just not much to choose from between Audyssey (with the iOS app to untangle Audyssey's many default errors) and basic Dirac. Both fundamentally do a good job of fitting a measured in room average response to a target curve. I could with minimal effort configure both to be indistinguishable in the blind for a 2.0 channel system, and with moderate effort configure both to be indistinguishable in the blind in a 2.1-channel system. Dirac does have the better UI, but if you have to use both UIs anyway (because duplicative sets of electronics crap) what does that matter?

Yes, DLBC pulls very far ahead of any flavor of Audyssey IME. However, except for one very expensive and possibly-not-yet-even-available NAD box, you can't even get DLBC on 2-channel electronics. This current sad-unfortunate state of so-called hi-fi 2-channel preamps and processors is why I personally had to buy a Monoprice HTP-1 to run our 2-channel system, even though there is zero chance of going beyond 2.multisubs in that room. Maybe Tony will start having his folks integrate the better flavors of Dirac into miniDSP products. I certainly hope and wish that to be so! But for now, if you want advanced room correction, you must use "home theater" electronics.

*I have used every variant of Dirac Live starting with the early betas. I have not used Audyssey's MultEQ X software; however IMO X does not even try to narrow the performance gap between Audyssey and the better versions of Dirac, there's no macOS version, and the licensing model sucks. So I don't see the point of it. The iOS app seems to do everything necessary, with better compatibility and far superior licensing terms.



As I understand it, CEC puts devices in standby as well as turning them on depending on what's in us. So if box x isn't used, it won't be activated. Is that wrong?

Admittedly last time I looked at CEC it was a mess I wanted no part of. It is unfortunate that Logitech discontinued Harmony, because there wasn't (and isn't, alas) any other good user-programmable remote control. But the database is still up (I hope! I haven't had to make changes in a while) so there's always the used market I guess.



Do you actually know that? Also, define "way."



So...having everything in one neat box means you can't parade a never-ending series of meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss who cares whatevers into your home, and you're stuck listening to music?

The horror! The horror!

I honestly find it's easier for me to switch speakers and the sub out and just listen to music for a session on a small integrated that sounds better in stereo then my present avr.

 

[Miker 1102]

@peng Having a MiniDSP in place would probably make it difficult the future integration into a HT system too, hence I want to keep it as cheap as possible at this point until I figure out where to go from here. I expect later this year we will see some decrease in prices and more options.

- If a x6800h comes out, it will finally bring some competition for the Pioneer LX805 and co.
- If Dirac ART (currently beta?) on the Denon is confirmed and prices keep dropping, it will be be a nice value proposition very soon. I would wait for this confirmation.
- If Dirac ART is announced at some point for the Pioneer LX805, it would nicely connect via XLR to the NCx500 to have end-to-end balanced. I would wait for this announcement too.

Until then, I need a quick solution for the 14-day return window of the speakers, not necessarily with Dirac. I just don't want to drive the NCx500 with the Wiim Pro directly. Probably not ideal to test the Kef Ref 3 Metas that just arrived today and due to the lack of proper volume control I'm a bit afraid to try honestly.
A quick 2ch or 4ch DAC purchase via Amazon with Dirac 14-day trial maybe, like you suggested.

I'm probably making it difficult and overthinking it but that is only because of the choice of front speakers. If I had something way cheaper, I would not stress about it. I just really want to make it work and reach a sound quality that is at least close to what I heard in the shop personally.

I have been using tbe WIiM for my solution. In my case, It's fine. I have kef q series ans a small svs. I need go learn more to implement a doffernt chain.

 

[-Matt-]

I always get lost on this part. Is the avr dac processing this signal and then it's being resampled and then sent to a different dac? I am not smart enough to do this.

In this post the OP explains that his sub has two inputs (hopefully they are switchable) one will be fed by AVR sub out, the other by minidsp sub out.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/avr-2ch-setup-question.46670/post-1667260

 

[dave999z]

So... OP here. I'm still wrestling with this stuff. We renovated our TV room last year, and in the process wired it up for 7.2.4. But I haven't bought an AV receiver and surround/height speakers yet. Currently, I still just have a 2.0 setup (Outlaw RR2160 receiver and Q Acoustic 3050 towers) that I use for both music listening (Apple Music running on iPhone connected to RR2160 via USB) and watching TV (TV connected to RR2160 via optical).

I am wanting to move toward a 7.2.4 setup, but am still contemplating exactly how to incorporate a great 2 channel setup (i.e., 2.1 or 2.2) for music. My next step is probably to add a first subwoofer (Rythmik F12). The RR2160 has analog bass management, so that would be fine as a start.

I would really like to add room correction DSP at the same time I add the sub. But then I'm going down that whole road of buying a separate DAC/DSP for 2 channel listening, on top of an eventual AVR. Even if I went that route, the MiniDSP Flex (which I was planning on in my first post) doesn't support Dirac Bass Control, and I have a feeling I am going to end up with two subs and would benefit from that Dirac multi sub integration functionality. But as some stated earlier in this thread, really no standalone 2/4 channel processors support Dirac Bass Control. So it's really only for people using AVRs (and therefore the AVR's DAC).

For now, I ordered a UMIK-1, which should be here next week, so I can take some REW measurements. Then I'll probably just add the sub, and measure again (even though I'd have no way to digitally correct anything), to see what I'm dealing with as far as how well one sub performs in the room across the main listening area (which is about 4 seats wide), and then go from there.

 

[Chrispy]

You can still have as good a 2ch setup using an avr. Then again do you even need 7.2.4? Do you have an appropriate room for it? Adding a sub to start sounds good.

 

[dave999z]

You can still have as good a 2ch setup using an avr. Then again do you even need 7.2.4? Do you have an appropriate room for it? Adding a sub to start sounds good.

Yes, since the renovation we now have an awesome room already wired for 7.2.4. It's about 18ft wide and 19ft deep, with a ceiling that angles up to 10' in the middle flat section.

I see that the Denon xr-6800h just came out ($3500). When I started this thread last June it hadn't even been announced. Perhaps I'll just go with that for everything and call it a day. It amplifies all 11 channels. The whole reason I started thinking about incorporating a separate 2channel power amp (and therefore why not also a better separate DAC for 2ch listening) in the first place is that the xr-4800h could process 11 channels but only amplify 9.

Also considering Anthem MRX 1140 8K ($4200), but need to do more research on it.