Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[DonR]

YouTube's compression algorithm makes audio comparisons meaningless. This test appears to lack even basic controls.

 

[DeepCuttaBeats]

No. Test is highly flawed. Look into blind testing etc. But from your attitude I’d reckon you won’t.

My attitude? I’ve been posting pertinent and substantive responses to what seems to be…kids.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

My attitude? I’ve been posting pertinent and substantive responses to what seems to be…kids.

You make my point.

 

[DeepCuttaBeats]

No. Test is highly flawed. Look into blind testing etc. But from your attitude I’d reckon you won’t.

That video is not a test. If you watched you would know it’s a sound demo of two components. It is not a competition with a chosen winner. You can draw your own conclusions, or none at all. Sheesh.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You make my point.

Not to take it away from you but he had made that point multiple times before that post of yours..

 

[Galliardist]

Ask Amir about the unit of measure he uses to corroborate his observation that gear A “was more resolving” than gear B. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

A reminder: this place is not a cult and we are not blind followers of @amirm. I'm sure that he has himself been questioned about the subjective parts of his speaker and headphone reviews more than once by members here.

Now, you probably need an attempt at a response.

Let's deal with "detail" first. Details can be emphasised by frequency response anomalies, so hearing certain details more clearly may actually be backed up by a measurement. We can also ask, when it comes down to it, "which piece of music and what detail?", narrow it down and examine to see if something holds up. It's still a subjective assessment, and many here want to deal primarily with objective, testable phenomena.

Now. let's come to "resolve". Resolve is a problem, unfortunately. It gets used as you used it - a general feeling that some item makes the overall musical experience better. Maybe a more specific meaning of resolve has to do with hearing more details across the entire audible frequency range. Such a property would come, as so many do, primarily from the recording, or the speakers/headphones/room. Amir has used the term resolving in reviews of speakers and headphones, and usually references distortion figures or frequency response when doing so. In

You used it with regard to amps. Now, I haven't looked at the video and I probably won't, because I find YouTube videos of this type to be of little use, and I have no reason to submit myself to the line that my system is indeed "not resolving enough" again right now. I suspect though that a genuine comparison that shows an amplifier as "more resolving" is not going to relate to the sound waves in the room or between headphones and ears. It would require an amp to distort to the extent and in the same way that a poorer transducer does.

As it happens, I find neither the terms "resolving" or "synergy" to do anything other than get in the way of meaningful discussion, whether you, Amir, a famous magazine reviewer, or anyone else is the person using one of those terms. I feel that there is a need to demonstrate something meaningful via measurements, specifications or controlled testing to talk about differences in sound waves.

Much of this goes on in the brain's interpretation of the sound, which relies also on memory and other information, when comparing devices sighted. I use the term "interpretation" because unlike the (in some ways better) term bias, or imagination, that get used here it is more neutral.

As to hearing actual audible differences between amplifiers when they are present, I have done that back in the 1980s using budget KEF Coda II speakers. I've also found more recently that properly controlled testing makes differences between amplifiers disappear when used within their performance envelope, even with significantly better speakers.

I haven't addressed the use of the term "high resolution" for higher bitrate files here as it's not the meaning you used. And when reporting on our own subjective respnses, we all slip occasionally into terms that don't really have much meaning. I'm sure I've done it somewhere here if you look. I think there's a case for challenging anyone who does, and also to look at the comparison concerned, because sometimes there is a more specific cause of change. One case I remember here was someone called a Magico speaker "more resolving" than another, when in reality all that was happening was a harder to drive speaker pushing some amplifiers out of their performance envelope.

And of course there is the insult involved in some use of the term. If I can't hear it and you can, it's quite likely to be about the recording, system setup and our own interpretation of the sound (that word again), and less likely to be about our relevant "systems being resolving". Especially if the listening is not controlled, or to a YouTube video.

 

[DanielT]

I don't understand the almost indignation that for some arises when it is pointed out that a combo of a modern budget DAC plus a good modern designed "standard/ bog standard" amplifier with enough power is enough to create a "High End" solution. What the hell it's the other way around, GOOD that it's like that!
Then you can spend the largest amount of your HiFi money on what really makes a difference (which will determine whether it will be "High End"), i.e. speakers and or headphones plus EQ fix and room acoustics fix (if you don't solve it with the right amount of furniture and carpets).

EQ in the lowest frequencies can probably be needed in most cases regardless of the furnishings in the listening room.

 

[SIY]

I don't understand the almost indignation that for some arises when it is pointed out that a combo of a modern budget DAC plus a good modern designed "standard/ bog standard" amplifier with enough power is enough to create a "High End" solution. What the hell it's the other way around, GOOD that it's like that!
Then you can spend the largest amount of your HiFi money on what really makes a difference (which will determine whether it will be "High End"), i.e. speakers and or headphones plus EQ fix and room acoustics fix (if you don't solve it with the right amount of furniture and carpets).

EQ in the lowest frequencies can probably be needed in most cases regardless of the furnishings in the listening room.

You miss the point. People who write for magazines, do YouTube videos, and who sell parity product dressed up in different stories have to eat and pay rent, too. If it takes superstition and enstupidation of their audiences to bring in the revenue, well, that's the price we need to pay.

 

[DanielT]

You miss the point. People who write for magazines, do YouTube videos, and who sell parity product dressed up in different stories have to eat and pay rent, too. If it takes superstition and enstupidation of their audiences to bring in the revenue, well, that's the price we need to pay.

That is most likely the case. The same as it was before the internet when HiFi magazines favored those who advertised in the magazine. It would probably be possible to find a correlation between the manufacturers' number of advertisements and the rating they received for their products in said HiFi magazine. I don't think it's too far-fetched and conspiratorial to suspect that was the case.

 

[BDWoody]

Nice YouTube demo here between two premium Class AB and Class D amps.

Using YouTube videos as evidence really isn't going to help your case.

What did you want me to arrive at after listening to that sound comparison?

Conclude that it isn't a meaningful way to make comparisons.

My attitude? I’ve been posting pertinent and substantive responses to what seems to be…kids.

Yeah... Maybe a little break from this thread would be good so us kids can get to nap time.

 

[antcollinet]

Ask Amir about the unit of measure he uses to corroborate his observation that gear A “was more resolving” than gear B. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

OK

Let me ask a different way. When I tell you there is no difference between devices that you hear a clear difference in - and you tell me it is because my system is not resolving enough, rather than it being because there is no audible difference to be heard:

1 - How do you know?
2 - What evidence can you provide to demonstrate your assessment?

 

[atmasphere]

Nice video as in the channel owners recordings are pristine. Nice as in only 1 variable is changing in the sound demo. Nice as in someone can listen for themselves.

“Impression of detail” and “warmth”. What are the specific units of measure for both of these attributes referenced here at ASR? I personally want “more impression of detail” in my system. I also want more “warmth”. What tool can I buy to measure both of these qualities so I can evaluate each and then systematically increase each one by 2 increments? I also want good bass, or gooder bass.

OK- unlike a lot of people here I think that amps can sound different on account of very measurable things. Both the 'measurement only' guys and the 'subjective (ears only)' guys tend to not like that about me and both tend to give me a hard time about it. But after designing all kinds of amps for over 45 years as a profession that is the conclusion to which I've arrived and so far no-one has presented a convincing argument to me otherwise. I think its pretty easy to show how class D design can fall flat on its face compared to conventional A or AB amps or completely eat those amps for breakfast- depending on the competence of the design. There's a thread on this site that is a comparison using a few bits of music and is also a poll; that one showed how a really bad amp can seem to sound pretty neutral, showing how important confirmation bias is to humans. You do have to be careful!

None of this means I'd listen to a video on YT and take that as gospel! There are way too many variables. A few: the microphone and its placement is an unknown; changing the placement could easily reverse the 'sound' of the amps (without the camera location changing...). So too is the room and the speaker placement in it. We don't know what is happening to the signal going to the amps or even if the amp that claimed to be the one playing is actually the one playing. YT messes with the sound using a compression algorithm. That can have far more effect on what you hear than you might think. If you've ever mastered a CD and used DSP as part of the mastering process you might have some idea of how this can affect the sound with unexpected results.

In short, the best you can say about any video on YT doing a comparison like this is that its inconclusive at best. Misleading or defamatory at worst.

 

[MaxBuck]

One thing good has come out of this discussion for me. I've realized that the moment someone uses the word "resolving" to describe audio reproduction, I can safely quit paying attention to them.

 

[mhardy6647]

One thing good has come out of this discussion for me. I've realized that the moment someone uses the word "resolving" to describe audio reproduction, I can safely quit paying attention to them.

It's the "Emperor's New Clothes" trope.
If you cannot hear the difference made by component "x" (e.g., a pair of "interconnects"), your system is simply not resolving enough.
Therefore, of course, all the cool folks will hear the difference. Just as they could see... the Emperor's New Clothes.

 

[DanielT]

OK- unlike a lot of people here I think that amps can sound different on account of very measurable things.

You can certainly hear differences between different amplifiers. The most obvious is when they are driven into clipping. No one can miss that noise. Very annoying. Can in and of itself be nice as an artistic expression, distorted guitars but hardly in a sound reproduction system. Deviations from straight FR, load dependent class D amps, tube amps maybe, sometimes. It depends on how big the deviation is. But amplifiers with enough power, with straight FR can you hear any difference? This is on the condition that SINAD is at least..let's say SINAD 80, or 90. Would you hear a difference between different amplifiers then?

 

[DanielT]

One thing good has come out of this discussion for me. I've realized that the moment someone uses the word "resolving" to describe audio reproduction, I can safely quit paying attention to them.

Low distortion speakers can probably be seen as having high resolution, to be "resolving".Or the other way around, high distortion speakers can be seen to have a cloudy, muddy, indistinct sound.

It's not easy to describe what it sounds like with subjective concepts.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

One thing good has come out of this discussion for me. I've realized that the moment someone uses the word "resolving" to describe audio reproduction, I can safely quit paying attention to them.

The world champion at constantly deploying that term is "friendly grandpa" U-Toober Paul McGowan of P(pronounced "bee")S Audio -- he tends to use it whenever someone doubts the audible effect of pricey speaker wire, AC mains cords, and of course his silly AC power regenerators.

 

[welwynnick]

But amplifiers with enough power, with straight FR can you hear any difference? This is on the condition that SINAD is at least..let's say SINAD 80, or 90. Would you hear a difference between different amplifiers then?

80 dB yes. That's around the level of ICEPower amps, which aren't transparent.
90 dB maybe, that would be difficult unsighted.

 

[antcollinet]

80 dB yes. That's around the level of ICEPower amps, which aren't transparent.
90 dB maybe, that would be difficult unsighted.

Are you sure? Have you tested your ability to hear distortion in real music? If not, you can try here:

Listening Test

www.klippel.de

The vast majority of people cant detect it below about -45dB

 

[welwynnick]

Yes I'm sure.

Edit: Actually no. I certainly used to be able to hear those differences, but I'm probably too old now. I'm sure that younger people would be able to, though.