From Electrocompaniet ECI4 to Purify, Hypex, ICEpower etc etc etc

[Winemaker]

Good morning to all those who read these lines of this new 3ad.
I would like to ask those who have experience in amplifiers such as Apollon Audio, Rouge Audio Design (which I believe, but I'm not sure, has closed its doors), VTV AMPLIFIER and others of the same genre, if you recommend switching from my class AB amplifier Electrocompaniet ECI4 with an amplifier, of the quality of the aforementioned ones, in class D.
The current composition of my system is as follows:
You already know the amplifier
The speakers are Kef R3 (not Meta)
The streamer is the Eversolo DMP A6 MASTER EDITION (which I would like to use as a preamplifier)
The CD player is the JungSon Moon Arbor hdcd (which I currently use as transport because I use Eversol as a DAC).
I would like to make this change because my amp, which I find excellent, has the "defect" of being too dark in the high range, so much so that I currently use it by equalizing it with the parametric supplied with the Eversolo.
I would add that the type of music I listen to ranges from Pat Metheny to Mozart, from Matteo Mancuso (the honor and pride of being Italian) to Paco De Lucia, from Pino Daniele (Neapolitan bluesman) to Iron Maiden..... and obviously Pink Floyd , Rush, etc etc etc.
I would really like to have opinions, indications, comments and above all advice.
Above all, I would like to be able to understand what differences there may be between the amplifier I own and a possible class D amplifier.
Thanks everyone in advance.

 

[Killingbeans]

I would like to make this change because my amp, which I find excellent, has the "defect" of being too dark in the high range, so much so that I currently use it by equalizing it with the parametric supplied with the Eversolo.

Sounds like you've already found a solution that works?

Why waste money on replacing components, when you are happy with the result you get from using a bit of EQ?

I mean, replacing an amp, that has an output filter that rolls off a bit too early (assuming that's what's going on) with one that's more flat in the treble, is essentially the same as applying EQ. Just a much more cumbersome and expensive way of doing it.

All the amps, you mention, most likely have a ruler flat response in the audible range.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how old are you? There's a very real risk of the "darkness" simply being the natual deterioration of your hearing.

I'd suggest getting yourself a UMIK-1 and do some in-room measurements with REW to see how "dark" your current setup actually is.

 

[Winemaker]

Why waste money on replacing components, when you are happy with the result you get from using a bit of EQ?

Because what I get with the EQ I would like to get directly from the amp, without subsequent manipulations and interventions.

 

[staticV3]

+1 for getting a UMIK-1.

Buying it and confirming whether there is an actual issue, is a whole lot cheaper than buying a whole new Amp in hopes that it will fix an issue.

Nowadays, we have cheap reference tools and tons of high quality resources on the internet, please use them. You'll be better off for it.

To confirm whether there's a treble roll-off in the system, I'd do a gated, nearfield sweep measurement just a few cm from the tweeter.

Here's a guide: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/loudspeaker-measurements

You can then compare that measurement to the on-axis frequency response graphs from ASR, EAC, and KEF:

 

[Eleo]

I think your current amp is fine. A new Class D may measure better, but it is very unlikely that the improvement will be audible. If you hear a dark sound, the cause should be elsewhere. Buy a Umik and try to investigate.

 

[Killingbeans]

Because what I get with the EQ I would like to get directly from the amp, without subsequent manipulations and interventions.

Alright, suit yourself.

Can't find any measurements or specs on the ECI 4 relating to frequency response...

Some "high-end" manufacturers use the cheap parlour trick of throwing a few filters into the design in order to differentiate their products from the competition. But I can't just assume that Electrocompaniet is one of them.

It's far more likely that both the ECI 4 and all of the Class D alternatives being mentioned have a flat response in the range that matters. Meaning that getting a different amp won't change your situation one bit.

It's far, far more likely that the "darkness" comes from either your speakers, your listening room/speaker placement or your hearing. Or a mix of those three.

 

[Hear Here]

Sounds like you've already found a solution that works?

Why waste money on replacing components, when you are happy with the result you get from using a bit of EQ?

I mean, replacing an amp, that has an output filter that rolls off a bit too early (assuming that's what's going on) with one that's more flat in the treble, is essentially the same as applying EQ. Just a much more cumbersome and expensive way of doing it.

All the amps, you mention, most likely have a ruler flat response in the audible range.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how old are you? There's a very real risk of the "darkness" simply being the natual deterioration of your hearing.

I'd suggest getting yourself a UMIK-1 and do some in-room measurements with REW to see how "dark" your current setup actually is.

I arrived at Class D by a rather different, though equally valid route. I'd been using SETs for 15+ years to power my horn speakers - and very good they sounded, despite the measurement shortcomings of both SETs and horns! When I got to the stage (let's say retirement) when I was spending far more time listening to my system, I started wondering if my costly to maintain and run valve amps were ideal.

After quite a bit of research with specs, worthwhile (not Youtube) reviews, opinions for forums, etc, I embarked on a series of home trials with solid state amps of all classes. These amps were in the £3-8K range - some just power amps, others integrated or all-in-ones. I bought or borrowed about 12 amps and kept them in my system for between a week and a year or so. I always had my SETs and one or two other amps to compare each new one to, but I wasn't looking to mimic the SETs but to look for an equal or better enjoyment factor when listening to music.

In the end, my favourites (as far as their sound quality and enjoyment factor of listening were concerned) came down to a GamuT D200 Mk III (AB), Accuphase A-36 (A) and the NAD M33 (D). The Accuphase was a wonderful piece with great features, but the sound was just a little too "polite". The GamuT had a nasty habit when powered up or down by sending a scary thump through the speakers (but it really did sound good), so I went for the M33 as it sounded every bit as good as any other I tried and it offered so much more than many others, being an all-in-one.

Even though I don't use its Dirac Live, nor any analogue source features, it offers exception sound for a very reasonable price. Being Class D, I can leave it running as long as I like without concern for my electricity bill, or special ventilation placement. It uses what is currently probably the best Class D technology - Piurifi Eigentakt, but not the standard cheap DIY Eval(uation) board, but a modified one developed between NAD and Purifi and built under license. Best probably to avoid cheap Purifi amps offered on Ebay, etc - there are better Purifi amps from NAD, T+A and perhaps one or two other respected brands.

Because I have no experience with your present amp, I can't say how the amps I tried would compare, but the NAD won out for me over some pretty big rivals from Mark Levinson, Lyngdorf, Sugden and others.

But always of course, choose an amp to work well with your particular speakers - and try at home before committing as your room will also influence you decision. I rejected some very well reviewed and good measuring amps because their sound just wasn't what I wanted, often lacking in excitement factor, so kiss of death as far as I'm concerned! Good luck

 

[Winemaker]

but I wasn't looking to mimic the SETs but to look for an equal or better enjoyment factor when listening to music.

That's exactly what I meant, you nailed my point.

 

[sigbergaudio]

All measurements I have seen of Electrocompaniet amplifiers have shown "at worst" 0.5dB drop at 20khz, so in practice flat response. I suspect as others here that you will not get a meaningful change in tonal balance by switching to a class D amplifier.

 

[staticV3]

That's exactly what I meant, you nailed my point.

If your enjoyment factor is enhanced by buying shiny new gear, installing it into your system, and going through all of your favorite tracks again, then by all means, buy a new Amp.

It'll almost certainly sound better to your ears, because you want and expect it to sound better (confirmation bias).

If your enjoyment factor is rooted in actual, tangible improvements in sound quality, then a UMIK-1 is a far better purchase.

 

[Winemaker]

If your enjoyment factor is enhanced by buying shiny new gear, installing it into your system, and going through all of your favorite tracks again, then by all means, buy a new Amp.

It'll almost certainly sound better to your ears, because you want and expect it to sound better (confirmation bias).

If your enjoyment factor is rooted in actual, tangible improvements in sound quality, then a UMIK-1 is a far better purchase.

I will consider the UMIK-1. It may be that what you said can be found in reality. Thank you always for all the advice you are giving me.

 

[Killingbeans]

The enjoyment factor is all that matters, but EQ is dirty....

Sorry, but it reminds me of this:

 

[staticV3]

I will consider the UMIK-1. It may be that what you said can be found in reality. Thank you always for all the advice you are giving me.

Btw, buying a UMIK-1 does not automatically mean applying EQ.

You can use it only to diagnose your system and make informed and effective purchasing decisions.

If the UMIK-1 shows that your old Amp is causing that treble roll-off, then you can purchse a new Amp with a clear goal in mind, and double-ckeck/confirm that the new one did in fact fix it.

 

[Killingbeans]

Or bring the ECI 4 to a repairman, so he can fix it.

 

[Hear Here]

All measurements I have seen of Electrocompaniet amplifiers have shown "at worst" 0.5dB drop at 20khz, so in practice flat response. I suspect as others here that you will not get a meaningful change in tonal balance by switching to a class D amplifier.

It's interesting that there's a truly massive difference in the sound delivered by my speakers when fed by the Benchmark AHB1 compared with the M33, or others that offered similar sound to the M33. Surprising as both are (sort of) the same Class. The Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 and Micromega M100 were not far from the M33's sound. The Sugden Marslerclass FPA-4 (now discontinued) was a big disappointment, despite the less costly A21 Series remaining popular over decades.

In a way, I'm pleased that the first non-valve amp I bought (based on a fellow Avantgarde owner's rave recommendation) was such a disappointment, as otherwise I wouldn't have bought or borrowed so many others amps before making a decision. These home testing sessions have proved to be the most important factor by far.

 

[Matias]

I would arrange with one of those sellers before ordering how returns and restocking fees would cost, and then order and try one in your system.

This one probably:

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apollon NCx500ST stereo class D amplifier based on Hypex NCOREx NCx500 modules. It was kindly drop shipped from the member and costs 1,090.00€ (US $1,168) with standard opamp. While the case is stamped aluminum, it is a heavily customized one...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Though shipping time could take a few weeks.

 

[Killingbeans]

It's interesting that there's a truly massive difference in the sound delivered by my speakers when fed by the Benchmark AHB1 compared with the M33, or others that offered similar sound to the M33. Surprising as both are (sort of) the same Class. The Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 and Micromega M100 were not far from the M33's sound. The Sugden Marslerclass FPA-4 (now discontinued) was a big disappointment, despite the less costly A21 Series remaining popular over decades.

In a way, I'm pleased that the first non-valve amp I bought (based on a fellow Avantgarde owner's rave recommendation) was such a disappointment, as otherwise I wouldn't have bought or borrowed so many others before making a decision. The home testing sessions have proved to be the most important factor by far.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but... Compared side by side with fast switching, or just impressions from listening sessions far apart in time? Level matched to +/-0.1dB? Blind?

I don´t doubt that the valve amp could have a "signature" of sorts, and some non-valve amps might be designed deliberately to give you a funky frequency response. But AHB1 vs. M33? That sounds... suspicious. Feel free to call me a grumpy naysayer, but in this case my money would be on suboptimal comparison conditions.

I mean, you could get a "truly massive" difference if one of the amps was pushed hard into clipping while the other was happily operating in its comfort zone. Or if the residual noise in one of the amps was large enough to give an annoying amount of hiss from a setup with a specific gain structure and speaker sensitivity.

But those two things have nothing to do with the frequency response of the amps.

 

[FrantzM]

It's interesting that there's a truly massive difference in the sound delivered by my speakers when fed by the Benchmark AHB1 compared with the M33, or others that offered similar sound to the M33. Surprising as both are (sort of) the same Class. The Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 and Micromega M100 were not far from the M33's sound. The Sugden Marslerclass FPA-4 (now discontinued) was a big disappointment, despite the less costly A21 Series remaining popular over decades.

In a way, I'm pleased that the first non-valve amp I bought (based on a fellow Avantgarde owner's rave recommendation) was such a disappointment, as otherwise I wouldn't have bought or borrowed so many others before making a decision. The home testing sessions have proved to be the most important factor by far.

to which @Killingbeans replied:

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but... Compared side by side with fast switching, or just impressions from listening sessions far apart in time? Level matched to +/-0.1dB? Blind?

I don´t doubt that the valve amp could have a "signature" of sorts, and some non-valve amps might be designed deliberately to give you a funky frequency response. But AHB1 vs. M33? That sounds... suspicious. Feel free to call me a grumpy naysayer, but in this case my money would be on suboptimal comparison conditions.

I mean, you could get a "truly massive" difference if one of the amps was pushed hard into clipping while the other was happily operating in its comfort zone. Or if the residual noise in one of the amps was large enough to give an annoying amount of hiss from a setup with a specific gain structure and speaker sensitivity.

But those two things have nothing to do with the frequency response of the amps.

I second @Killingbeans
Would like to know under what conditions the tests were conducted... and a bit about @Hear Here horn speakers...

Peace.

 

[Verig]

It uses what is currently probably the best Class D technology - Piurifi Eigentakt, but not the standard cheap DIY Eval(uation) board, but a modified one developed between NAD and Purifi and built under license. Best probably to avoid cheap Purifi amps offered on Ebay, etc - there are better Purifi amps from NAD, T+A and perhaps one or two other respected brands.

NAD really does good with their M-range. Only modifications that make sense, the board upgrades power stability with very difficult loads, not fairy dust, and the rest is just no-nonsense functionality. Perhaps a bit put down by high-end crowd for being not expensive enough and no magic involved but very technically clear headed choice that one. Especially if you need Dirac it becomes almost affordable compared to many.

 

[Eleo]

I also agree with @Killingbeans. I think it is impossible that two Sota amplifiers with the same speakers and under the same conditions can give such different performances.