Audioholics - Stop Chasing SINAD Distortion in Audio Amplifiers

[MaxwellsEq]

That begs the question, shouldn’t SNR be the more closely followed metric? Why pollute what matters (SNR) with what is largely irrelevant in audio electronics except in edge cases (distortion).

Well.... I don't particularly like SNR on its own. This is because higher gain devices often measure less well. I prefer a single figure (such as Noise Figure) for the noise itself as well, when available, a view of the noise spectrum. When I started out, it was largely impossible to see how noise changed with frequency.

SINAD is a very useful indexing approach, and I agree with sticking to it. But I'd also like to have an index of the residual noise behaviour of the devices, since once SINAD gets into the 80s, noise behaviour is more interesting than distortion.

 

[Ron Texas]

There's more than one way to look at this problem. What seems dominant around here is if a an amplifier with a SINAD of 96 dB is good, one with a SINAD of 106 is better and will sound better. The truth is more like the gear with the higher SINAD is better engineered but will sound the same unless something else is going on like the load goes below 4 ohms and one is stable and the other is not.

Noise isn't a problem until it is. That's kind of Yogi Bearish but think about it. Low efficiency speakers are unlikely to have audible hiss. I have a Crown 1502 with it's very low 78 dB SINAD and there is no noise once my ear is a foot from the speaker which happens to be an original LS50. However there are complaints about hiss from owners of active speakers, especially the inexpensive ones. Likewise, nearfield systems are going to show noise if there is any. A respected active monitor was torn down here and I recall the SINAD of the amplifier chip was a measly 75 dB or so. There's no passive network to gobble up power so audible hiss is likely in a a nearfield setting.

The good news is there is a lot of gear around with a high SINAD which is budget priced.

 

[amirm]

That begs the question, shouldn’t SNR be the more closely followed metric? Why pollute what matters (SNR) with what is largely irrelevant in audio electronics except in edge cases (distortion).

I don't promote it that way since SINAD can be measured in the dashboard whereas SNR cannot (it has its own protocol). That said, I regret not making a table for it like I did for SINAD. In rev 2.0 or the dashboard, I hope to expand the database to track SNR/DNR.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

There's more than one way to look at this problem. What seems dominant around here is if a an amplifier with a SINAD of 96 dB is good, one with a SINAD of 106 is better and will sound better. The truth is more like the gear with the higher SINAD is better engineered but will sound the same unless something else is going on like the load goes below 4 ohms and one is stable and the other is not.

Noise isn't a problem until it is. That's kind of Yogi Bearish but think about it. Low efficiency speakers are unlikely to have audible hiss. I have a Crown 1502 with it's very low 78 dB SINAD and there is no noise once my ear is a foot from the speaker which happens to be an original LS50. However there are complaints about hiss from owners of active speakers, especially the inexpensive ones. Likewise, nearfield systems are going to show noise if there is any. A respected active monitor was torn down here and I recall the SINAD of the amplifier chip was a measly 75 dB or so. There's no passive network to gobble up power so audible hiss is likely in a a nearfield setting.

The good news is there is a lot of gear around with a high SINAD which is budget priced.

Although I care about hiss from speakers, that's not the only aspect of noise I'm interested in.

Domestic HiFi chains are very simple things, with a couple of gain stages, some attenuation and some switching.

Studio and broadcast chains are considerably more complex, with multiple gain, attenuation, switching stages in series. The only way to build successful studios is to minimise noise at the start, at every stage and at the end.

Noise becomes imprinted onto the recording in the same way that a signal is. This is like entropy, or trying to unmix a baked cake, it's irreversible.

Once you get into the habit of working this way, you tend to treat noise as an intruder you are trying to keep out. Noise just doesn't hiss from speakers, it roars in the mid frequencies and buzzes at the low end. As little of it as possible should be accepted in a replay chain

But, yes, hissing speakers are annoying.

 

[Keith_W]

I wouldn't say that Amir does reviews, he does measurements. For example, with a DAP there are more important things than the SINAD of the output. I don't care about SINAD in a DAP. More important to me are: battery life, amount of storage, whether the UI is responsive or not, whether there are dedicated buttons / knobs for playback and volume control, how fast it starts up, build quality, output options, how long the manufacturer supports the product via firmware updates, and most importantly it has to be non-proprietary (so all those Sony Walkmans in the past with proprietary charging ports and memory sticks can GTFO). However I understand that Amir fills an important gap in the review market - you can find out all those things about a DAP by reading other reviews. Sadly many of those other reviews don't provide this information either.

 

[DanielT]

As long as the distortion is better than 0.01% (80dB SINAD) I don't worry a lot.

With really low-distortion speakers, perhaps. Speakers with let's say around 1% distortion, it doesn't matter to me if the amplifier has maybe even ..0.1% distortion. Maybe even up to 0.3%, but that's the limit then.As long as there is enough amp power so it is not driven into clipping.
More annoying then can be audible noise. Not to mention it's starting to mess with humming grounding issues in the HiFi solution you have(but that's another issue).

Since we are much more insensitive to distortion in the lowest frequencies, so for a subwoofer amp, I almost exclusively check that a sub amp has a lot (I mean a lot of power) plus that it can handle tough loads.Plus if such a sub amp has a fan (which can produce a very annoying sound) or not.
Distortion levels, which was the topic, for subwoofer amps, I don't care, in principle, about. As long as it is a good amp construction in itself.

 

[Music1969]

I don't care about SINAD in a DAP.

kind of important if don't want hiss with iems

 

[Vacceo]

It seems the Marantz AV10 is an exception to this trend, and they have been more transparent than usual with the AV10 and the Denon A1H in sharing their measurements, so that seems to be a good sign for the future! I really enjoyed watching the Masimo videos discussing the AV10 and the A1H.

However, I'm not happy that both brands have only been fully transparent with the measurements of their flagship models. They should have shared YouTube videos or slides with this level of detail for all products as a default. I'm also not sure why they use a-weighted measurements (and Gene's does that too).

Always been a Denon fan, but this time I am seriously considering the AV10 because of its measured performance (and reduced weight compared to the A1H, which is impossible to move around).

Marantz nailed it with this procesador: Audyssey and Dirac (and if rumors are true, potential to get ART; DLBC is in the works), channels for massive theatres or several zones, streaming, fully capable video array on HDMI full bandwidth, competent phono... And above 100 db SINAD!

This should be the norm in processors/avr's, to be honest.

EDIT: I´d have hoped that the Amp 10 included Hypex modules instead of ICEPower ones, but at 96 db SINAD, 16 channels, that is far from a bad combination. To me, that equates to "guaranteed CD quality" (words from Amir in an interview, to quote properly), which for an amp, it is not a bad rating.

 

[SCG]

I regret not making a table for it like I did for SINAD. In rev 2.0 or the dashboard, I hope to expand the database to track SNR/DNR.

Interested in knowing more about implementation and timeline of 2.0 dashboard tracking SNR.

 

[egellings]

I would argue that SINAD not only counts but that it should also come verified and signed by the manufacturers for each single device.
We've seen enough so to trust no one,the (whatever) advertised specs should follow each device.

If not and the famous "sample to sample variation "excuse is at play then we're good with 20 yo stuff cause that's what some variations do.
Bad news is that for this to happen components,thermals,etc must have very-very small tolerances.

So,measure,measure,measure.

As an electrical test engineer, I agree. Only thing is, you can't measure goodness into the product.

 

[thewas]

SNR vs DNR

When you look at the datasheet of an audio device, you may see a specification that states its “signal to noise ratio” or “SNR”. Or, you may see the “dynamic range&#82…

www.tonmeister.ca

 

[CleanSound]

Here Gene is explaining, he can't run an audio publication as a money losing hobby and still have to live.

I am grateful for ASR, but I am fully awared that not everyone has the resources that Amir has to run a non for profit audio review.

 

[JSmith]

Reviewers that constantly give positive reviews and rarely or never a negative are paid shills. If there are no solid measurements conducted... the "review" in relation to performance metrics is useless. They are more advertising, unboxing and opinion pieces exploring functionality. "Golden ears" opinions are also useless.

I don't believe Gene falls into these categories.


JSmith

 

[CleanSound]

I don't believe Gene falls into these categories.

This is me coming to the defense of Gene and anyone who does honest work for a living.

I respect Gene and Audioholics, understanding that they are not a not-for-profit organization. Not only I find it fitting and more than appropriate for someone like Gene to pursue his dream and have the freedom to run his dream as a business in order to make a living, I champion it, no one should have to work for free because it's called slavery.

Because we have Amir who provides a service for free, now people are feeling entitled and expects others to do the same. Anyone who expects others to provide a service or product for free are completely and utterly delusional and entitled. I don't work for free, neither do any of you who don't already have a livable income stream. I need to pay my mortgage and save up for my kids college tuition and retirement, so do you if you don't already have a livable income stream.

Now that I got that off of my chest, back to Gene's "Stop chasing SINAD," if I am honest, yes, there is a self serving element to that, because if everyone is chasing SINAD, then his business may suffer since most of the brands who can afford to advertise with Audioholics, don't measure at SOTA. And if Gene publish the AP measurements of them, then it may negate any recommendation he may give. So when a for-profit business stack ranks products based on SINAD like ASR do, good luck getting manufacturers to send you products for review just like no manufacturers send Amir anything to review unless they already know that it measures well. And good luck getting advertisers to keep your business afloat, you might as well declare bankruptcy and close your business now.

However, Gene is right that SINAD is not the end all, be all. If it is, why is it that not every ASR member owns the Topping LA90? I'll tell you why, because the power of the LA90 is pathetic, the miniature sized form factor, resembling of a kid's toy, is not for everyone, there is no local support, reliability is questionable. Additionally, our pathetic human hearing has an audibility threshold, especially for the average age of a typical audiophile; I sincerely doubt that we can hear a difference between 110dB SINAD vs 85dB SINAD under a normal listening session when you are trying to enjoy the music.

Sure, Audioholics recommended a pair of speakers that measured less than stellar, but guess what? So did Amir with the Magicos.

Sure, James Larson has a pretty big mishap by using a load dependent amp for his speaker measurements. But if you read his review and measurements everything is done in good faith and sometimes honest mistakes are made and when that happens you fix it and it becomes a learning experience. Sure, James Larson does quasi anechoic measurements, which is not as accurate as SOTA NFS, but not everyone can afford $100k+ for an equipment, not everyone is willing to take out a mortgage to finance a NFS without a clear ROI like Erin did.

So at the end, I will continue to reference Audioholics' reviews and recommendations but with the knowledge that they are at the end of the day, a for-profit business, and to me, for-profit businesses not only is the way of life, it's a good thing.