Audio content delivery

[Wombat]

Even if you are highly paranoid and suspect that the encoded formats might contain something untoward, you can always convert to WAV and recode back into your chosen lossless format using software you trust. While it's true that the files (and even you, the individual purchaser) might be identifiable via the metadata, you can easily examine that metadata, rewrite what you want to retain and delete anything you don't like.

What is more interesting is the science of steganography – the embedding of data covertly within a sound or video stream. Such a process is likely to withstand multiple generations of conversions through lossless formats but may well be destroyed by one generation into the MP3 or AAC space. Such conversions are, after all, specifically designed to remove non-audible data.

The sure indicator of the existence of such hidden data that might identify the purchaser is if you and I buy a nominally identical product yet there are unexplained file differences between the two. The oddly named OpenPuff software is great fun to play with.

So there might yet be a useful purpose yet for those lossy formats

Hey, we aren't all so computer savvy.

 

[Krunok]

It's changing already. Apple make phones without analogue outputs.

In a desperate move to justify ridiculously low price/value of their phones. That was clearly a failure.

 

[Wombat]

In a desperate move to justify ridiculously low price/value of their phones. That was clearly a failure.

At crucial moments my phone battery tends to be 'flat'.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Do you have evidence that streamers like TIDAL an Qobuz use watermarked files?

As @Don Hills mentioned, it’s not the streaming services that are doing it but rather the labels. There is also evidence of watermarking of non-streaming content, e.g. from HDTracks.

Various pieces of evidence were put forward in this thread and also this thread.

It was difficult to accept for me at first that the watermarking could be audible, even with the various purported examples posted online.

However, it then clicked that the watermark is designed to withstand lossy compression and therefore must create distortion that is severe enough in type and degree that it isn’t filtered out by codecs based on psychoacoustic models.

There’s an interesting discussion of this buried in this industry blog here.

 

[Pluto]

Thanks so much for sending my paranoia level to 11. I'll be tossing round the bed and thinkin bout this schitt till 6:00AM Christmas day.

Don't get too paranoid!! Last year (i.e. late 2017) I did have the opportunity of comparing two independent purchases of the same thing (from HDTracks) and the files were identical. So at that stage, we could be confident that there was nothing there to identify individuals. There might have been a watermark to identify the copyright owner but that isn't worth getting too worked-up about.

I might do some experiments with OpenPuff to see how much data can be hidden within a one minute WAV file before it becomes audible.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Put a CD in the tray and push 'play'.

But that assumes you can easily put your hand on the particular CD (or other disc) that you want to play. A physical disc can only be in one place at a time and that means you have a foolproof system for storage and that you put it back there every time, even though with multifareous content one might place it elsewhere. In addition, that one place cannot be in all the places where I might want to play it. Before I retired, I played music in my office, my apartment and my house. File storage and access was the only sane solution.

Such inconvenience compared to a computer, software, file management, menus, and storage and back-ups to multiple dodgy drives for security.

Once structured and constructed, such a system needs little attention. FWIW, I have little use for commercial streaming sources.

Well, what would you expect a Luddite to say.

My response was predictable.

 

[sergeauckland]

But that assumes you can easily put your hand on the particular CD (or other disc) that you want to play. A physical disc can only be in one place at a time and that means you have a foolproof system for storage and that you put it back there every time, even though with multifareous content one might place it elsewhere. In addition, that one place cannot be in all the places where I might want to play it. Before I retired, I played music in my office, my apartment and my house. File storage and access was the only sane solution.
Once structured and constructed, such a system needs little attention. FWIW, I have little use for commercial streaming sources.
My response was predictable.

When I started ripping my CDs, I have several hundred, and that took a few weeks doing it as and when. However, once they were done, I started ripping my newly purchased CDs as soon as I got them home, so takes very little effort. I now have several thousand available instantly.

I can't, now, imagine not having all my CDs available to stream on my SBT, as I can play whole albums, individual tracks, a random mix either by album or track and/or by genre. I now listen to FAR more music than I did before when I had to decide which CD to play.

S.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I can't, now, imagine not having all my CDs available to stream on my SBT,

SBT?

 

[sergeauckland]

SBT?

SqueezeBox Touch



S

 

[amirm]

Before I retired, I played music in my office, my apartment and my house.

Add the car to that list for me. I lost a bunch of CDs that way as a result of changing jobs, selling cars, etc.

 

[amirm]

There’s an interesting discussion of this buried in this industry blog here.

We had a recent discussion about it here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/watermarking-what-do-we-know.4871/

 

[svart-hvitt]

We had a recent discussion about it here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/watermarking-what-do-we-know.4871/

@amirm , didn’t you want to do a test of streamers like Tidal for watermarking?

 

[amirm]

@amirm , didn’t you want to do a test of streamers like Tidal for watermarking?

How?

 

[svart-hvitt]

How?

«The goal is to find out when you use Tidal at "CD quality" it really is CD quality. Things like watermark insertion can compromise the fidelity if not done well. The first step in there would be to compare the files and see what we find different».

Makes sense?

 

[amirm]

«The goal is to find out when you use Tidal at "CD quality" it really is CD quality. Things like watermark insertion can compromise the fidelity if not done well. The first step in there would be to compare the files and see what we find different».

Makes sense?

I would have to capture the output, time align and then compare. Too much work for me and it is something someone else can do just as well.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I would have to capture the output, time align and then compare. Too much work for me and it is something someone else can do just as well.

Darn it...

I think nobody has ever taken a look at streamers; to check output vs CD/hi-res file, watermarks etc. So it would be groundbreaking work.

If you know of anyone done something like this, I’d be all ears.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Anyone with Audacity should be able to do this. One would have to be certain the two recordings were the same master, otherwise it should be relatively straightforward.

Unfortunately I subscribe to Spotify rather than Tidal.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Anyone with Audacity should be able to do this. One would have to be certain the two recordings were the same master, otherwise it should be relatively straightforward.

Unfortunately I subscribe to Spotify rather than Tidal.

One would need the recordinng, maybe the artist/ME etc.

It would be really groundbreaking to look at this. The old geezers here playing their CDs seem to take some comfort in the assumption that streaming is watermarked while CDs are not. I am neurotic; can’t sleep before the old geezers are shown their belief is wrong.

 

[amirm]

I thought there were some tests of CD rips versus Tidal before.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I thought there were some tests of CD rips versus Tidal before.

Amir Quality style or drivethrough McDonald’s?

Such a test would take good equipment and some skill, I guess?