ATC speakers / Monitors

[574stereo]

When one likes a manufacturer so very much that it blinkers one to the objective truth.
What is needed of course is some klippel /spin measurements of ATC designs.
Keith

You could get in touch and ask ATC for their NFS measurements if you like. I'm not doing this for you. In the meantime I have no specific reason to doubt their performance and all the indication is they would measure very well under your specified measurement conditions.


In the meantime, the in-room response looks great in my space. I have KH310s LCR as part of my Atmos rig alongside ATCs with a sub for 2 stereo mixing. The ATCs actually measure flatter in the listening position and subjectively sound better too. I'm not sharing my measurements with you unfortunately as it's none of your business. If you want measurements, do them yourself.

 

[Purité Audio]

ATC have Klippel NFS measurements?
Keith

 

[574stereo]

Yes. They've used Klippel for years. The factory is full of their test equipment and they've had an NFS for a long time.

 

[Blockader]

Yes. They've used Klippel for years. The factory is full of their test equipment and they've had an NFS for a long time.

They use Klippel QC for testing their drivers. However, there is no documented proof that they have Klippel NFS. Of course, this is unless you can provide a solid proof of your claim.

 

[Shorty]

Five years ago, HiFi News measured the active £36,083 ($46,000 US) SCM100SE, and found ‘clear evidence of a BBC dip’ and break-up resonances in the midrange unit ‘with a clear mode at around 5 kHz and hints of other, poorly resolved modes at lower frequencies’.

ATC SCM100SE Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report From the disposition of its drivers, the intended listening axis for the SCM100SE appears to be on the axis of the midrange cone, which is at typical seated ear height. Our initial frequency response measurements were made at this microphone height and above and below it, which...

www.hifinews.com

 

[dfuller]

Five years ago, HiFi News measured the active £36,083 ($46,000 US) SCM100SE, and found ‘clear evidence of a BBC dip’ and break-up resonances in the midrange unit ‘with a clear mode at around 5 kHz and hints of other, poorly resolved modes at lower frequenties’.

ATC SCM100SE Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report From the disposition of its drivers, the intended listening axis for the SCM100SE appears to be on the axis of the midrange cone, which is at typical seated ear height. Our initial frequency response measurements were made at this microphone height and above and below it, which...

www.hifinews.com

And yet their notes are really mostly positive. Barely over +/-2dB for the entire response and the "BBC dip" is slight.

The 5khz breakup is well into the stopband - but yes, I agree, they should be crossing about 500hz lower so it's further from the passband. I should note that every soft dome mid around 3" has a breakup mode somewhere in that region (3.5-5.5khz). Everything else is down 30dB by 2ms, which is really inconsequential.

 

[RobL]

And yet their notes are really mostly positive. Barely over +/-2dB for the entire response and the "BBC dip" is slight.

The 5khz breakup is well into the stopband - but yes, I agree, they should be crossing about 500hz lower so it's further from the passband. I should note that every soft dome mid around 3" has a breakup mode somewhere in that region (3.5-5.5khz). Everything else is down 30dB by 2ms, which is really inconsequential.

Was it the ATC midrange that S&R compared to the Neumann unit via laser interferometer pics? (In S&R’s review of the KH310 in 2013)

 

[dfuller]

Was it the ATC midrange that S&R compared to the Neumann unit via laser interferometer pics? (In S&R’s review of the KH310 in 2013)View attachment 356630View attachment 356631

Doubt it, probably the D76 in the O300.

 

[thewas]

What do you mean 'it' doesn't work? Or you 'have' to? You're saying that unless someone backs up every single statement they make with a measurement, they get bullied into submission by people like yourself? This is a publicly accessible forum, anyone can post.

Nobody stops you posting, just don't be surprised to be questioned if you make technical claims as facts (higher electronic distortion) and cannot back them up like you did.

Yes. They've used Klippel for years. The factory is full of their test equipment and they've had an NFS for a long time.

As said from others you are confusing NFS with other Klippel devices that also many other manufacturers have. NFS also isn't in the market "for a long time".

Was it the ATC midrange that S&R compared to the Neumann unit via laser interferometer pics? (In S&R’s review of the KH310 in 2013)View attachment 356630View attachment 356631

Here is a comparison between an ATC and a Neumann mid dome:

ATC speakers / Monitors

Which would be? For example the current Neumann 75 mm mid dome. Neumann used the ATC dome in their former flagship O 500 C. The newer KH 420 uses their own driver which is superior to the older ATC design in terms of non-linear distortion (up to 10 dB), below measurements show this: The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And yet their notes are really mostly positive. Barely over +/-2dB for the entire response and the "BBC dip" is slight.
The 5khz breakup is well into the stopband - but yes, I agree, they should be crossing about 500hz lower so it's further from the passband. I should note that every soft dome mid around 3" has a breakup mode somewhere in that region (3.5-5.5khz). Everything else is down 30dB by 2ms, which is really inconsequential.

The breakup is also only one side of the problem, the other is the directivity mismatch to their non waveguided tweeter at such high crossover frequency.

 

[dfuller]

Yes of course, let's not forget about that. ATC for whatever reason decided to run the mid basically wide open which may have not been the correct decision.

I feel it is worth noting that the ATC dome in the O500C was the non-S version which is a little less performant - to my understanding it lacks the SLMM rings so has higher distortion from the motor, and the motor itself is smaller and weaker (about 2dB lower sensitivity).

 

[Avp1]

Why should someone need to complain about Neumann not innovating? Are you aware of the amount of speakers they released in recent years on how they perform (objectively)?

Then real people hear Neumann then ATC and choose ATC, even if they cost almost twice as much. Technical reports are just a starting point to weed out really bad designs and get device on short list for subjective evaluation. Technical reports for three way ATC do not show any obvious flaws. My only complain about ATC is use of rather thin boxes, in line with classic British tradition. That is the only thing that I would like corrected (after living with 800 series of B&W).

 

[G|force]

Not easy being a fanboy.
Keith

I'm a Genelec fanboy through and through and I find it to be mostly easy. I'm agnostic toward ATC. Mods please feel free to delete this pointless post.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I'm a Genelec fanboy through and through and I find it to be mostly easy. I'm agnostic toward ATC. Mods please feel free to delete this pointless post.

Sweet!

 

[DSJR]

Then real people hear Neumann then ATC and choose ATC, even if they cost almost twice as much. Technical reports are just a starting point to weed out really bad designs and get device on short list for subjective evaluation. Technical reports for three way ATC do not show any obvious flaws. My only complain about ATC is use of rather thin boxes, in line with classic British tradition. That is the only thing that I would like corrected (after living with 800 series of B&W).

My 100A's (okay, they were black lacquer finish!) had no detectable vibration from the boxes when playing FLAT OUT I can assure you (I was a hooligan then when neighbours were out (and sometimes in when I didn't know - cough-). Yes, the raw 100 model carcasses minus front baffles were pretty light which surprised me, but the things were VERY heavy and hard to slide across a carpeted floor when assembled and set up!

The response of mine may not pass muster either (pre SL but post '93 amp packs with chunky 'handles' rather then the earlier bent rod types) as they had three small bumps in the middle of each pass band (Vifa original tweeters with heavy ATC front plates) giving a very flattened 'w' kind of shape. Klippel's all very well, but our human hearing coupled with room acoustics can hide so much. Mine still did a very passable woodwind, drum kit and voice at (almost) realistic levels and the current SL model can 'do' lower volumes too which mine weren't so good at! I always preferred the 100A to the 50A by the way, if that's of any interest, but I don't know the 25 or 45 and probably never will now.

P.S. Why I'm defending these things now at the prices they're at today is almost beyond me, but at least I owned three pairs and was delighted with each except the slightly top-ragged 20ASL Pro's which have changed tweeter type twice since the pair I had and also the carcass is now conventional. I became pee'd off with ATC's sales management at the time as they really didn't want to know as regards changing the original tweeters for the first replacement type and basically shrugged their shoulders, which is something previous sales management wouldn't have done I feel. I ended up selling them in 2009 for the price it would have cost to update them and it left a nasty taste in my mouth until I heard the 100ASL's again some years later!

 

[Eckerslad]

My 100A's (okay, they were black lacquer finish!) had no detectable vibration from the boxes when playing FLAT OUT I can assure you (I was a hooligan then when neighbours were out (and sometimes in when I didn't know - cough-). Yes, the raw 100 model carcasses minus front baffles were pretty light which surprised me, but the things were VERY heavy and hard to slide across a carpeted floor when assembled and set up!

The response of mine may not pass muster either (pre SL but post '93 amp packs with chunky 'handles' rather then the earlier bent rod types) as they had three small bumps in the middle of each pass band (Vifa original tweeters with heavy ATC front plates) giving a very flattened 'w' kind of shape. Klippel's all very well, but our human hearing coupled with room acoustics can hide so much. Mine still did a very passable woodwind, drum kit and voice at (almost) realistic levels and the current SL model can 'do' lower volumes too which mine weren't so good at! I always preferred the 100A to the 50A by the way, if that's of any interest, but I don't know the 25 or 45 and probably never will now.

P.S. Why I'm defending these things now at the prices they're at today is almost beyond me, but at least I owned three pairs and was delighted with each except the slightly top-ragged 20ASL Pro's which have changed tweeter type twice since the pair I had and also the carcass is now conventional. I became pee'd off with ATC's sales management at the time as they really didn't want to know as regards changing the original tweeters for the first replacement type and basically shrugged their shoulders, which is something previous sales management wouldn't have done I feel. I ended up selling them in 2009 for the price it would have cost to update them and it left a nasty taste in my mouth until I heard the 100ASL's again some years later!

I have the current 50ASL and they have the ‘w’ shaped frequency response that you describe. I correct full range with a Trinnov, and have copied the ‘w’ shape, which sounds better than flat or the ‘Harman’ curve to me in my English living room.

 

[dfuller]

I have the current 50ASL and they have the ‘w’ shaped frequency response that you describe. I correct full range with a Trinnov, and have copied the ‘w’ shape, which sounds better than flat or the ‘Harman’ curve to me in my English living room.

Having listened to the 50ASL Pros fairly recently, I don't hear the w-shaped response. If it's present it's quite subtle, not like the 40s where it's quite blatant.

 

[thewas]

I have the current 50ASL and they have the ‘w’ shaped frequency response that you describe. I correct full range with a Trinnov, and have copied the ‘w’ shape, which sounds better than flat or the ‘Harman’ curve to me in my English living room.

Could you please post a screenshot of that target curve here?

 

[Eckerslad]

Could you please post a screenshot of that target curve here?

Sorry about the scale, this is all I have at the moment because my Trinnov App is playing up.

Having listened to the 50ASL Pros fairly recently, I don't hear the w-shaped response. If it's present it's quite subtle, not like the 40s where it's quite blatant.

It is subtle - a slight rise peaking at about 1.5dB though the midrange, a couple of dB dip at the mid-tweeter crossover and a rise in the bass which I controlled to about 4dB ( there was an in-room modal peak of something like 14dB at 40Hz in my room!)

 

[Purité Audio]

That is a very flat ( horizontal ) target, the early Trinnov units we imported corrected to a flat FR, I suggested to them that they should include some targets with a slightly more downward sloping target, which I believe they now include?
Have you tried a slightly more downward tilted slope.
Keith

 

[Theta]

Yes, it is indeed the "S" version. Since it is the model ATC use on all of their models from the SCM50 and up, I think it is fair to consider this one. Jeff did not specificy the SPL indeed, it would have been helpful.

I don't think that Troels measurement are really "off" so to speak. It is just that his HD numbers generally seem to be a bit higher than those on Hificompass or other websites (for identical drivers and SPL of course). The HD numbers on Audioxpress are also a bit higher than average.
Since these numbers depend on the type of microphone used and other factors, the absolute numbers do not matter too much if the test protocol is always the same.

As I said, what differentiates the ATC mid-dome to most of its rivals is its ability to play quite low (most mid-domes hate that). Since there are not much comparable competitors mid-domes to begin with (Volt, PMC, Neumann), in a way the ATC mid-dome is still quite unique. But since good midrange cone drivers can achieve pretty much the same or better (especially in the low-end), while being less cumbersome than this ATC driver, the question is whether the mid-dome configuration is really that useful in the first place. This is my opinion at least.

Witch cone midrange driver even comes close to the ATC mid-dome?