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ATC speakers / Monitors

goat76

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SCM40A: As Measurements of ATC speakers generally are quite rare I will add my measurements of SCM40A here. It was improvised measurement, in the living room, speaker on the floor, mic distance 1m, mic height between mid and tweeter. Gating 4ms but there were still some reflections remaining.
I listened first, before the measurements. I would describe the sound as quite ok. There was certain dullness in lower midrange, the lack of the fullness in the bass and lower midrange, it , midrange was little bit emphasized and forward, trebles quite fine.
Measurements confirmed the impression. Additionally, there was almost zero damping material in the bass cabinet, which is the cause for dull lower midrange.
Midrange in not linear, though very smooth and consistent off axis up to 3kHz.

I think with some patient work and tuning these could be made to sound much better.

SCM12: see the writeup from troubleshooting and small tuning

Great set of measurements, but you must gate the measurements with a much shorter time until you don’t see any movements in the waveform. Those measurements have wat too much disturbance from reflections.

It will be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on the strengths and the weaknesses when you have had more time with the speakers.

The measurements AVMENTOR did does also contain way too much reflection disturbance to call them “gated” measurements.
 

YSDR

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The SCM40 measurement is interesting, there is a small off-axis flare of around 1.5dB in the measurements I’ve seen of the mk2 SCM40 around 4K, no way near as significant as that posted above. I wonder if this is something to do with the nature of the measurement?

Bearing in mind it’s the same driver diaphragm & waveguide used in the larger SCM50 etc upwards, which certainly don’t exhibit anywhere near that level of DI error as indicated from the measurements.
The SCM50 and upper models have asymmetrical midrange and tweeter placement on the baffle, this helps to mitigate/spread (not eliminates completely ofc) diffraction problems.
 

PKAudio

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Great set of measurements, but you must gate the measurements with a much shorter time until you don’t see any movements in the waveform. Those measurements have wat too much disturbance from reflections.

It will be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on the strengths and the weaknesses when you have had more time with the speakers.
True, but shorter gating would totaly remove the midrange data and I did not want that. The disturbances are quite small, eye can easily filter out the regular wave pattern in the measurement. We should not automatically disqualify such a measurements just because they are not NFS. Trained eye can see through, and for the proper judgement the conditions of the measurement must be taken into account. Those measurements were taken in order to find the issue with the faulty loudspeaker. This was the measurement of the right one.

I did not have a time to listen to them for long, I would assess the sound as somewhat congested, not overly detailed. Someone could see it more positive, so assessment would be easy to listen, forgiving,....
 

YSC

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True, but shorter gating would totaly remove the midrange data and I did not want that. The disturbances are quite small, eye can easily filter out the regular wave pattern in the measurement. We should not automatically disqualify such a measurements just because they are not NFS. Trained eye can see through, and for the proper judgement the conditions of the measurement must be taken into account. Those measurements were taken in order to find the issue with the faulty loudspeaker. This was the measurement of the right one.

I did not have a time to listen to them for long, I would assess the sound as somewhat congested, not overly detailed. Someone could see it more positive, so assessment would be easy to listen, forgiving,....
I am not really trained but what I read on that is just ignoring the small yet consistent ripples and read the general trend, the 3-6khz hump looks too broad and stand out to be gating issue
 

Berlin

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When comparing the measurements done by the German magazine LP

https://www.audiotra.de/media/pdf/46/5c/ab/LP_2019-02_ATC_CA2mkII_P2-SCM40.pdf

Bildschirmfoto 2024-01-03 um 12.03.12.png


to AVMENTOR

https://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/atc_scm40_2.shtml

atc_scm40_quasi_anechoic.jpg


I do see similarities...

The broad dip around 3 kHz was confirmed to me by email.by an ATC engineer back in 2022. It seems to be there by design. So ATC decided to design a speaker that is colored...

Edit:
A pair of passive 40s is currently sold in Germany for more than 5000 EUR - a pair of way superior active KH 150s for less than 3000 EUR...
 
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YSC

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When comparing the measurements done by the German magazine LP

https://www.audiotra.de/media/pdf/46/5c/ab/LP_2019-02_ATC_CA2mkII_P2-SCM40.pdf

View attachment 339270

to AVMENTOR

https://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/atc_scm40_2.shtml

View attachment 339271

I do see similarities...

The broad dip around 3 kHz was confirmed to me by email.by an ATC engineer back in 2022. It seems to be there by design.
Wild guessing, I forgot where I read this but sometimes it’s on purpose to let the directivity error reflected sound to fill in the gap
 

klangfilm

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I have listened to scm19, scm20, scm40 and scm50 numerous times in untreated and treated rooms as I was pleased with several qualities they seem to share and was thinking to buy some of them.
I also compared in an extensive listening session in a treated room the scm20 and the kh310.
My opinion in a nutshell.
With all atc models not soffit mounted (I have never listened to them soffit mounted), you need subwoofers.
The mids seem to be detached from the rest.
The impression of detailed mids is more a psycho acoustic effect due to the relative levels of the mids.
Compared to a kh310, the scm20 is in difficulty when the music contain a lot of layers, with many elements covering the full spectrum . Many things seem to disappear with the scm20 in these conditions.
It’s just a subjective opinion but it is rather coherent with the measurements.
And it does not mean that I don’t prefer the ATC to many loudspeakers !
 

Berlin

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Wild guessing, I forgot where I read this but sometimes it’s on purpose to let the directivity error reflected sound to fill in the gap
Yes, I understood the answer of the ATC engineer this way. But wouldn't this mean that room treatment is not intended by ATC? If there are no reflections from e.g. the side walls, how can the gap be adequately filled? BTW, shouldn't this information be in the handbook that comes with the speakers..?
 

goat76

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I am not really trained but what I read on that is just ignoring the small yet consistent ripples and read the general trend, the 3-6khz hump looks too broad and stand out to be gating issue

That is not true at all, the whole curve changes a lot, not just the small ripples. Either you make a gated measurement of you don’t, there is no middle point to it.
 

PKAudio

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That is not true at all, the whole curve changes a lot, not just the small ripples. Either you make a gated measurement of you don’t, there is no middle point to it.
When I am forced by the measurements conditions to shorten the gating I usually try several gating settings to see the effect of the certain gate time. You see it too strict. Mild reflections such from speaker stand etc will not change the overall FR trend at all, they just add the ripples. The trend I measured is very similar to AVMentor and Audiotra measurements, and the trend plus off axis responses are the most useful information we want to see. On a contrary, strong reflection from, for example, the floor or ceiling (as those are usually the most limiting boundaries for indoor measurements) cause unwanted FR trend changes.
Of course any reflections are undesirable, but sometimes I need to work in given conditions.
 
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goat76

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When I am forced by the measurements conditions to shorten the gating I usually try several gating settings to see the effect of the certain gate time. You see it too strict. Mild reflections such from speaker stand etc will not change the overall FR trend at all, they just add the ripples. The trend I measured is very similar to AVMentor and Audiotra measurements, and the trend plus off axis responses are the most useful information we want to see. On a contrary, strong reflection from, for example, the floor or ceiling (as those are usually the most limiting boundaries for indoor measurements) cause unwanted FR trend changes.
Of course any reflections are undesirable, but sometimes I need to work in given conditions.

You could always “lift the cloud” by showing us what the measurement looks like with different gate times.

Maybe you can share the REW mdat file?
 

PKAudio

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I do not want to spend a time with it. I do not want to teach anyone. Everything I write comes from practical experience, and anyone experienced with the gated measurements would agree I dare say.
Shorter gate time, below 4ms, would further smoothen the curve, leading to information loss higher in frequency spectra so it would be even further from "the truth".

It was a years back, if I find mdat I will share later this week.
 
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goat76

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I do not want to. I do not want to teach anyone. Everything I write comes from practical experience, and anyone experienced with the gated measurements would agree I dare say.
Shorter gate time, below 4ms, would further smoothen the curve, leading to information loss higher in frequency spectra so it would be even further from "the truth".

It was a years back, if I find mdat I will share later this week.

Well, there is no way around it, either you make the gate short enough to work in the room you are using, or you move to a larger room that suits the wanted gate time.
 

goat76

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I do not want to spend a time with it. I do not want to teach anyone. Everything I write comes from practical experience, and anyone experienced with the gated measurements would agree I dare say.
Shorter gate time, below 4ms, would further smoothen the curve, leading to information loss higher in frequency spectra so it would be even further from "the truth".

It was a years back, if I find mdat I will share later this week.

Hi, I just wanted to get back to you to tell you I have now looked at some of the measurements I made of my SCM40, and I think now that your measurements are probably pretty accurate. :)

Just one thing about the distance. Are measurements at 1 meter enough for the sound from all drivers to sum correctly, I heard someone say the microphone should be placed at least 2 meters away from a 3-way speaker.
 

dfuller

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Hi, I just wanted to get back to you to tell you I have now looked at some of the measurements I made of my SCM40, and I think now that your measurements are probably pretty accurate. :)

Just one thing about the distance. Are measurements at 1 meter enough for the sound from all drivers to sum correctly, I heard someone say the microphone should be placed at least 2 meters away from a 3-way speaker.
That depends on the size of the speaker and driver spacing. IIRC most larger 3 ways aren't really going to sum properly til 1.5m but smaller ones will sum closer.
 

YSC

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Yes, I understood the answer of the ATC engineer this way. But wouldn't this mean that room treatment is not intended by ATC? If there are no reflections from e.g. the side walls, how can the gap be adequately filled? BTW, shouldn't this information be in the handbook that comes with the speakers..?
Somehow I think they won't, even if it's the case, to ATC if the design works in a normal reflective room well enough they don't need to mention this to the customer, as a vendor I would say if you include such an instruction ppl will be trying to do all sort of extreme things according to the said instruction which is just opening a can of worms, you better off let them do whatever they like and have peace in mind.
 
OP
Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

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Is there ever going to be a brand new ATC monitor with new drivers , cabinet , amps etc ?
Or are they just going to keep making the same old stuff.
Will there ever will be a coaxial ATC?:)
 
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